Cardinal discussion

[Arlington]

Amtraks' job with the Cardinal is to run it at as low a loss as possible while maximizing mobility. The current schedule seems optimized for parts of West Virginia that, in TOTAL have a population less than CIN all by itself. The question is: is that still the best that can be done?

I would re-time the Cardinal to take what is essentially the Lynchburger's slot and run it daily, essentially guaranteeing that the "East Third" can be run profitably.
Then note that it makes a very useful "West Third"

Depart NYP at around Noon (you could start from Boston at 8am similar to Lynchburger)
Serve CVS at around 7pm (and WSS by 10pm)
Serve CIN at around 7am
Arrive CHI at 3pm

I would run the eastbound 6 hours earlier
Depart CHI at Noon
Serve CIN at 9pm (Ashland at midnight)
Serve CVS at 9am (served WSS at 6am)
Arrive NYP at 5pm (and run onward or connection to Boston by 9pm similar to Lynchburger)

And sorry, WV. If this is about essential mobility, please catch your train at the same time that the LDs serve PGH and CLT.

[Arlington]

The other idea is to switch the Cardinal (back) to Superliner equipment and run it from Washington. Here running it slow might pay off. I'd try to get to CVS by 3pm and WSS by 6pm, but then run it slow for 3 extra hours overnight so that it'd serve CIN at 6am.

Coming back, you'd do CIN at 9pm, but have it run slowly such that it'd serve WSS at 9am (a decent "check out hour") and CVS at 12noon.

[Morning Zephyr]

Why does the Cardinal serve Cincy when it does and the Builder serve Montana when it does and the Lake Shore serve Cleveland when it does? Don't look for rationality. The reason goes back to the fundamental purpose of Amtrak: the purpose of Amtrak, and NARP's advocacy for it, is not to be responsive to markets, or be geographically equitable, as some earlier posters imply are the criteria. (Though those should be the criteria.) No. Remember, the purpose of Amtrak, and the focus of most advocacy, is simply to keep everything as similar to May 1, 1971 as possible.

[electricron]

Why does the Cardinal serve Cincy when it does and the Builder serve Montana when it does and the Lake Shore serve Cleveland when it does? Don't look for rationality. The reason goes back to the fundamental purpose of Amtrak: the purpose of Amtrak, and NARP's advocacy for it, is not to be responsive to markets, or be geographically equitable, as some earlier posters imply are the criteria. (Though those should be the criteria.) No. Remember, the purpose of Amtrak, and the focus of most advocacy, is simply to keep everything as similar to May 1, 1971 as possible.

Most long distance trains are scheduled to reach Chicago in the morning, they are scheduled to depart Chicago in the afternoon and evening. Don't believe me, here are their schedules at Chicago.
Southwest Chief
Train 3 departs 2:50 pm
Train 4 arrives 2:50 pm (exception?)
California Zephyr
Train 5 departs 2:00 pm
Train 6 arrives 2:50 pm (exception?)
Empire Builder
Train 7 departs 2:15 pm
Train 8 arrives 3:55 pm (exception?)
Texas Eagle
Train 21 departs 1:45 pm
Train 22 arrives 1:52 pm (exception?)
Capital Limited
Train 29 arrives 8:45 am
Train 30 departs 6:40 pm
Lake Shore Limited
Train 48 departs 9:30 pm
Train 49 arrives 9:50 am
Cardinal
Train 50 departs 5:45 pm
Train 51 arrives 10:00 am
City of New Orleans
Train 58 departs 8:05 pm
Train 59 arrives 9:20 am

Exception? Yes and no.
All the trains potential originating from the West Coast are schedule to arrive in Chicago no later than 4:00 pm - all the trains going south or east depart no sooner than 5:30 pm. There are around at least 1 hour (almost 2 hours) of layover time with Train 8 arriving before 4:00 pm and with Train 50 departing just before 6:00 pm

All the trains originating from the East Coast or New Orleans arrive no later than 10:00 am - all trains potentially going to the West Coast depart no sooner than 1:30 pm. There are around at least 3 hours (almost 4 hours) of layover time with Train 51 arriving at 10:00 am and with Train 21 departing at 1:45 pm.

There isn't room in the schedule to change some trains by 6 hours. If a train departs Chicago 6 hours earlier - it affect passengers transferring to it from other trains. Likewise, if a train arrives in Chicago 6 hours later, it affects its' passengers transferring to other trains.
Otherwise, having trains arrive in Chicago 6 hours sooner makes transferring to other trains easier, and likewise having trains depart Chicago later makes transferring to them easier.

Moving the Cardinal to a later arrival in Chicago hurts transfers to other trains, moving the Carinal to an earlier departure hurts transfers to it.

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Why does the Cardinal serve Cincy when it does and the Builder serve Montana when it does and the Lake Shore serve Cleveland when it does? Don't look for rationality. The reason goes back to the fundamental purpose of Amtrak: the purpose of Amtrak, and NARP's advocacy for it, is not to be responsive to markets, or be geographically equitable, as some earlier posters imply are the criteria. (Though those should be the criteria.) No. Remember, the purpose of Amtrak, and the focus of most advocacy, is simply to keep everything as similar to May 1, 1971 as possible.

But on May 1, 1971, trains didn't pass through Cincinnati during the graveyard shift. At that time, there were two separate trains, one west to Chicago and one east to Washington and Norfolk-Newport News.

http://timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0023" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh, on May 1, 1971 there was this train called the Broadway Limited. What a concept! Maybe Amtrak should be more like May 1, 1971.

[dowlingm]

Why is it Amtrak's job to run service between Wolf Point and Libby (wherever the heck those places are) for free but not Cleveland and Cincinnati (or for that matter, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, which now only has state supported service)?

Because Congress, by statute and by funding envelope, says so.

[Greg Moore]

Why does the Cardinal serve Cincy when it does and the Builder serve Montana when it does and the Lake Shore serve Cleveland when it does? Don't look for rationality. The reason goes back to the fundamental purpose of Amtrak: the purpose of Amtrak, and NARP's advocacy for it, is not to be responsive to markets, or be geographically equitable, as some earlier posters imply are the criteria. (Though those should be the criteria.) No. Remember, the purpose of Amtrak, and the focus of most advocacy, is simply to keep everything as similar to May 1, 1971 as possible.

Most long distance trains are scheduled to reach Chicago in the morning, they are scheduled to depart Chicago in the afternoon and evening. Don't believe me, here are their schedules at Chicago.
Southwest Chief
Train 3 departs 2:50 pm
Train 4 arrives 2:50 pm (exception?)
California Zephyr
Train 5 departs 2:00 pm
Train 6 arrives 2:50 pm (exception?)
Empire Builder
Train 7 departs 2:15 pm
Train 8 arrives 3:55 pm (exception?)
Texas Eagle
Train 21 departs 1:45 pm
Train 22 arrives 1:52 pm (exception?)
Capital Limited
Train 29 arrives 8:45 am
Train 30 departs 6:40 pm
Lake Shore Limited
Train 48 departs 9:30 pm
Train 49 arrives 9:50 am
Cardinal
Train 50 departs 5:45 pm
Train 51 arrives 10:00 am
City of New Orleans
Train 58 departs 8:05 pm
Train 59 arrives 9:20 am

Exception? Yes and no.
All the trains potential originating from the West Coast are schedule to arrive in Chicago no later than 4:00 pm - all the trains going south or east depart no sooner than 5:30 pm. There are around at least 1 hour (almost 2 hours) of layover time with Train 8 arriving before 4:00 pm and with Train 50 departing just before 6:00 pm

All the trains originating from the East Coast or New Orleans arrive no later than 10:00 am - all trains potentially going to the West Coast depart no sooner than 1:30 pm. There are around at least 3 hours (almost 4 hours) of layover time with Train 51 arriving at 10:00 am and with Train 21 departing at 1:45 pm.

There isn't room in the schedule to change some trains by 6 hours. If a train departs Chicago 6 hours earlier - it affect passengers transferring to it from other trains. Likewise, if a train arrives in Chicago 6 hours later, it affects its' passengers transferring to other trains.
Otherwise, having trains arrive in Chicago 6 hours sooner makes transferring to other trains easier, and likewise having trains depart Chicago later makes transferring to them easier.

Moving the Cardinal to a later arrival in Chicago hurts transfers to other trains, moving the Carinal to an earlier departure hurts transfers to it.

This is worth quoting and reading if one didn't because it does show that Amtrak does give some thought to how it tries to handle what are basically the breakdown of the Eastern LD and Western LD trains. And it sort of makes sense because someone coming from the east into Chicago is unlikely to head back east the same day, but is likely to head west. And vice vera.

That said, it's one area where if Amtrak could add 1 or 2 more east coast LD trains terminating in Chicago and perhaps NYP or WAS, they could afford to run more "off-hours".
But... money and equipment. Write your local rep.

[mtuandrew]

Really hoping Amtrak acquires enough LD equipment to allow a Broadway Limited again - not because Philadelphia necessarily needs a western connection, but because it frees the Cardinal to be rescheduled in a way that makes sense for the enroute communities.

[Arlington]

Leaving this thought here, but mostly going to pursue it in the "Amtrak Expansion" thread:

If you did a survey of where WV people need to get to, I suspect that the top places would be:
DC, Cinci, & Pittsburgh as the closest commercial hubs, and the places that the families of "Hillbilly Elegy" migrated to, leaving connections both in WV and these hubs.

So the cousins, the grandkids, the funeral, the university medical center, the regional sales office, and the tall-building lawyers are in CIN, PGH, and WAS all of which are expensive to get to by air.

And vice-versa for where "tourists" and "weekend getaway" vacationers come from. The sweetspot for weekends is 2 ~3 hours away, and for vacations is 6 hours away.

This has strong implications for how you connect WV to CIN and WAS, but also how you make corridor trains, in general.

[east point]

The PRIIA reports which have been deleted by Amtrak showed that LD trains connecting thru CHI had anywhere from 19 - 40% connecting passengers depending on train. Believe Capitol was highest? Why do you think that connecting trains are so often held or passengers are bused to a connecting point?/

[Tadman]

I’ve heard before that connections are important, but are they Los Angeles to New York, or Minneapolis to Cleveland? That’s a big difference.

[bill613A]

The biggest flaw in the CARDINAL schedule is the time it takes between Chicago and Cincinnati. Unless this can be tightened up the train is going to continue as a rolling joke. Many years ago IIRC there was talk of rerouting it thru Ft. Wayne but I don't know if that routing via NS is still viable. In the 70's & 80's the CHI-CIN route was always on the list of emerging corridors but nothing was ever done. In the mid 80's for a brief period the train had a degree of reliability when it ran over the C&O via Peru, Marion and Muncie but because it bypassed Indianapolis that route was eventually dropped. IMO the only way to have a hint of decent reliable service is:

1. Running daily DC-Chicago with the CIN-CHI segment overnite to mitigate the slow running time using Superliner equipment.
2. The Superliner equipment would come from the CAPITOL LTD.
3. The CAPITOL LTD would run with Amfleet and Viewliner equipment CHI-PITT-NY with a DC section switched at Harrisburg via the old port line.
4. The PENNSYLVANIAN would run on a later schedule EB and an earlier schedule WB.
5, The ex-B&O line PITT-DC would lose service.
6. A stop should be made at Oxford, OH (Miami of Ohio Univ).

[east point]

Until Congress changes the Amtrak legislation to acceptable LD requirements any route change and the necessary capital expenses we cannot expect any upgrades

[ExCon90]

As to point 3 above, I think it would be faster to split the train at 30th St. and run via the NEC; the Washington section of the Broadway did that at one time. Also, you'd have electric power from 30th St. instead of diesel over the Port Road (NS willing) and south from Perryville.

[mtuandrew]

I agree with most of those Bill, and a Broadway Limited section of the Capitol Limited really is overdue, but why move from the B&O PGH-WAS to the Pennsylvania Broad Way and Port Road?

A Cardinal with a late-night Washington or Chicago arrival is an interesting idea. To make it work, I think you’d need a Regional with baggage service for a cross-platform transfer, since I’d be willing to bet a lot of traffic from West Virginia goes northeast of Washington. You’d also want to convince Indiana, Virginia, and West Virginia that a more reliable, daily train is worth having it at the wee hours in at least one direction.

How can we speed up CHI-IND if there’s an indifferent landlord in the way? It sounds like CSX is slowly rebuilding the Monon/NYC route to allow 310,000 lb cars, but isn’t interested in speed upgrades past 40 mph freight/60 mph passenger. IND-CIN doesn’t seem as bad or as inconsistent. Amtrak has periodically made noise about moving to the ex-NYC from the ex-B&O, so maybe that’s why they haven’t pushed harder on Oxford.