Hoosier State Discussion (both Amtrak and Iowa Pacific)

[Arborwayfan]

I live in Terre Haute, about an hour from the Crawfordsville station on the HS. When I want to go to Chicago, I drive an hour and 20 minutes to Effingham, IL because the HS is slow, unreliable, and once a day. I would not the the HS as it now stands as a tremendous loss. I wish Indiana would subsidize a corridor, but I have little hope of that. Our new governor is pushing a 10% tax cut and has no interest, or perhaps belief, in collective services like public transportation. I could comment on his and his party's dishonesty about the benefits of this and other laws, but that would be way OT.

[MikeEspee]

The funny part is, every time we got a pilot and went up the IC at CN Jct from the Grand Trunk we would still be earlier than the best flat running time off the "normal" route. Thats with running the Thoroughfare up thru Markham, maybe waiting for the South Shore at Kensington and shoving into CUS... And that also eliminates using 3/4 of the encyclopedia CORA Guide and slims it down to roughly 15 used pages.

Nothing says "we're trying" quite like sitting at Dolton for an hour watching 3 trains clatter across on the Harbor at 6mph and/or getting "The Belt" at 80th Street. Fact of the matter is, for now it is not in the cards to be improved. Just hope it can be saved and maintain status quo in the interim... otherwise it will be a shining example of how to eliminate services across the country.

[Tadman]

Mike, it's good to hear you say this. For years I've been advocating an IC routing from Harvey to downtown for the Hoosier/Cardinal. The IC was built as a fast mainline to downtown, with grade separation from just about everything. I don't know why we have to study and study and study when it's clear the IC would work just fine without spending another nickel. Now that CN has diverted a lot of traffic to EJ&E, the IC downtown line is also a bit quieter.

[CarterB]

Bring back the "Riley" or equivalent operating times CHI-IND or CIN...otherwise dump it. I can walk to CHI faster than the HS!!

[Tadman]

We've discussed this in a number of threads, but that's easier said than done. You've got the following problems:

1. Chicago region - very poor routing. Amtrak intends to partially remedy this with CREATE, but I'd advocate doing it for free by using the IC route.

2. Rural Indiana - it was over-rationalized in the 1980's and the track just isn't there anymore. Where it is there, it's slow.

3. Indy region - roundabout routing due to over-rationalization. The eastbound train does not enter from the Northwest, it approaches offset to the west suburbs, dips below the centerline of downtown, and then enters from the Southwest.

This is a case where it's a number of significant factors stacking up against Amtrak to make this a tough project. It's not a political squabble or lack of resources, it's mostly grossly over-abandoned and over-downgraded trackage. You can't blame the Class I's, either, as they made a conscious decision to carry freight in a different pattern than IND-CHI. They had to do something, because the PC was flat broke, the B&O was in rough shape, and the Monon wasn't the paragon of health. Thus, Conrail rationalizes PC and CSX rationalizes B&O and Monon. What remains between CHI-IND is a network "just good enough" to carry low-priority freight and pay the bills while doing so.

It sounds like, according to both EspeeMike and my educated hypothesis, that the most inexpensive step and biggest schedule builder would be to re-route this train up and over the SCAL and onto IC, then down to Harvey on IC, before joining GTW for the ride to NW Indiana. The former IC from downtown to Homewood is grade separated from absolutely everything other than the South Shore interchange.

[MikeEspee]

Yea Tad, like you said - Indy pretty much is what it is right now. Circuitous route into the city, with dark railroad almost the entire way from Crawfordsville. No bones about it... goofy.

Previously, two plans were in the works to shave time off the HS and Cardinal trip times above Indianapolis. Only one came close, but both died - The first went right up to the point the funding was readied to be allocated and was squashed because an agreement couldn't be reached between Amtrak and the CN. That plan was adding a few new crossovers at CN Jct to eliminate using the Thoroughfares altogether, aside from the x-over move, with Amtrak paying for install and the CN maintaining. After completion, a train could come off the Grand Trunk and get right over to the IC mains and shoot into the city without having to run the Thoroughfares to Kensington. The "normal route" would be adjusted from there, moving off the UP/BRC/Metra/NS nonsense. It was so close, our guys almost began qualifying the new section.

The other idea that never made it out of its infant stages was running the St. Louis Line straight out of the gate from Indy, and rehabbing the connection to the Monon at CP 39. It would require a westbound connection to be built and likely some track improvement on the Monon to get the speed up from 25mph below Ames. Honestly, it was talked about seriously but just fell out of the limelight. Naturally without the funding, all it turned out to be was an idea.

[Tadman]

When you refer to the thoroughfares, what is that? I know at one time the IC had separate passenger, freight, and commuter mains from 18th street to Markham. Commuter went to Metra, and in some places there's four non-wired tracks left but two are not mainline status. Is that what you're referring to, the two non-mainline tracks?

[MikeEspee]

Correct. The Thoroughfares, #3 and 4 are the two "other than main track"s adjacent to the Chicago Sub main tracks on the Main 2 Side (opposite Metra Electric District side). Last I recall, I think they are only good for 10 or 20mph and if I remember correctly ARE signalled between CN Jct and Kensington. I think I remember something about the 'restricted speed requirement on other than main track' being excepted on these tracks, as well... But it's been awhile.

[Tadman]

Just for kicks, I got out an old book - "Limited by the Lakefront". It's about IC passenger service in the Chicago area. There's a few 1935 track maps in the back, here's a cameraphone shot of a few critical points.

Interesting stuff worth looking at:

1. In 1937, downtown was a bustling freight terminal.
2. As such, the SCAL has no direct ramp for southbound traffic. It appears all Iowa/western traffic came into Grant Park yard rather than turning south to Markham.
3. The "thoroughfares" EspeeMike mentions appear to be the freight mains. The passenger (LD) lines are dashed, and the four (2 south of Kensington) electric lines are on the far left.
4. It appears there's always been a Harvey interchange with CN.
5. The crossovers that would be useful in this situation (and were evidently proposed) are gone now, but there was a set just north of CN Junction. There was another set a few miles north at the IHB overpass.

What's gone
1. Central Station
2. Any mainlines north of the SCAL
3. South Water, 31st street, Fordham, and Wildwood yards
4. 26th street engine terminal

[GWoodle]

Wait.
I thought the "passenger lines" became freight lines that connected Markham with the rest about 16-18th street. The CONO & Champaign trains use this route to get south, so you already have 6x day. Adding 2 a day for HS/Cardinal S/b no problem. Would be nice to have a new Chicago River bridge for direct entry into CUS.

[justalurker66]

3. The "thoroughfares" EspeeMike mentions appear to be the freight mains. The passenger (LD) lines are dashed, and the four (2 south of Kensington) electric lines are on the far left.

The diagrams also show the six suburban electric lines north of 67th street. There once was a lot of rail in that alignment.

Now Metra is four tracks and CN-IC mains are two tracks from 79th street north, then west to the end of the line.
Thoroughfare 3 and 4 (the old freight mains) run from 82nd street south (unsignalled north of 115th St) to Homewood.

North of Homewood the mains allow for 65 mph passenger / 50 mph freight / 20 mph thoroughfare for most of the length.
South of Homewood Main 1 allows for 79 mph passenger / 60 mph freight. Mains 3 and 4 are restricted to 40 mph.
Main 2 ends at Homewood (23.5), Main 4 ends about two miles south at Vollmer with Mains 1 and 3 continuing south.
Main 3 ends at Stuenkle (31.6) and the CN-IC becomes single track.

[Frank]

Are there any bottlenecks on the line Hoosier State and Cardinal run on between Indianapolis and Chicago?

[Station Aficionado]

Are there any bottlenecks on the line Hoosier State and Cardinal run on between Indianapolis and Chicago?

Arguably, the entire route is a "bottleneck" in that is not presently of suitable quality for useful passenger service. As for specific segments, you might to want out to do a search of other threads that deal with the HS. They lay out the problems in great detail.

[David Benton]

thruway buses across to the Carbondale and CONO services at Champaign would probably be a better service .

[Tadman]

Frank - in brief, you have the following three problems.

1. Chicago inner-city routing is awful, covering many railroads and crossing quite a few more. It's slow, and it's known for delays waiting for drags and transfers on the belt railroads.

2. Indianapolis inner-city routing is nothing great. The original direct routing is gone, meaning the trains approach town from the southwest near the ex-NYC Avon yard.

3. The countryside running is a mish-mash of former legacy routes, and none are the paragon of fast mainline running like the NS Chicago line or BNSF Transcon. Various factors like signalling and jointed rail contribute to low average speeds.

As you can see, the entire route has problems. It's not just a few bottlenecks, it's a broken system. I take the train wherever I can, but I'll drive to Indy every time.