Hoosier State Discussion (both Amtrak and Iowa Pacific)

[Tadman]

Why does selling Beech have to mean no midwest yard? How about looking for a facility elsewhere... for instance has Nippon sold their Rochelle factory yet? (EDIT: oops noticed @mtuandrew made the same point)

It's a good question, but Rochelle is a car assembly point versus Beech being a heavy (perhaps the heaviest in the world) back shop. The cranes are much smaller and the overall concept of the building layout would take a lot of work to adapt. Beech is set up to have a locomotive picked up by a 200-ton crane, carried over others, and set down in a place where it can be totally rebuilt in one spot. Rochelle is more of an assembly line situation and the heaviest crane there might pick up car bodies and set them on trucks, but not much higher. You certainly couldn't lift cars over cars to my knowledge.

During the malaise era and throughout the 80's, most heavy backshops not in use were vacated and demolished or sold to companies that use the cranes. Heavy cranes are very expensive and hard to find, so other companies that need them would snap them up quickly. Consider Colonie or Sayre, they slowly fell apart and were vandalized until demolished.

[Tadman]

But considering Indiana has been strong-arming Amtrak,

I don't really consider that strong-arming. It's not a mystery that Amtrak's fees to run a state train are out of whack, that's been published about lately in respectable journals. The same road that requires below-market rate for rights on freight tracks charges way above market for 20 year old horizons. Indiana owns a vibrant railroad and knows what a car is worth, and felt they were getting ripped off. That's only strong arming in the sense Indiana played hardball trying to get a fair price, not that Indiana was ripping off Amtrak.

Also, the South Shore is a fine operation - and the only operating authority in the state. That says a lot about the priorities of the northern tier of counties in how they see fit to invest their share of local, state and Federal monies. It suggests other things about the rest of the state.

It's worth mentioning that Northwest Indiana is both heavily urbanized like Chicago Suburbs and very industrial. The model of those counties is far different than the rest, which are predominantly rural, with low density, and lots of auto parts factories in small towns. The railroad model there of class I and shortline freight supports that eco-system of farms and auto parts, and it is thriving. Any changes to the rail eco-system like new passenger trains have to respect that freight model, otherwise there will be less passengers to ride the trains.

[Tadman]

One thing none of these posts address, which is a far more critical question: Should the Cardinal be two trains, the CIN-WAS and CIN-CHI day trains? We discussed that a lot on another thread, and it would eliminate the daily Hoosier questions.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I also considered a CHI-LAF-CHI overnight joyride, but too often I learned the Ellis Hoosier State was departing from Canal Street and not Track 18.

"Too often?" ... once would be too often if it hit on the day one wanted to travel..

That's what it's all about, Mr. Lurker.

I never came as close to booking an Ellis Hoosier State joyride as I did the PRJ. All I can think regarding the PRJ adventure, is what if I got down to NO only to find he scrubbed? Well, that would have been an $800 (RT: ORD-MSY-ORD @walk up rates) misadventure.

The Hoosier State would have been only a $150 (one night, major brand, Downtown Lafayette) sting, but the PRJ experience was all to "fresh".

[eolesen]

Granted, Beech was purpose built as a railroad support shop, but there are other locations which could replace it as far as capabilities for engine repair go. As an example, GE's shops in Erie have a questionable future, and are on a corridor that sees twice as much traffic (which isn't saying much since the LSL is the only train in and out of Erie).

Looking at the airline parallel, you could also outsource locomotive overhaul the way that airlines have with aircraft and aircraft engine overhaul to third parties. Sure, the unions hate that, but there are private employers who can do things smarter and more efficient.

[Arborwayfan]

Arborwayfan wrote:
What's different about the South Shore?

The South Shore has Chicago as a hub. There is a fair amount of draw to South Bend for weekend trips, but the service is supported by taxes and delivering people to work in Chicago. The South Shore is doing well enough that there will be a second line serving west Lake County. The South Shore fits in nicely with the commuter mentality of taking the train in to the city for work or play. And that city being Chicago works fairly good.

Exactly my point. And the key part is that it delivers people from Indiana to work in Chicago, so they want the their taxes to pay for the subsidy AND the state sees a benefit from the train. A train that mostly takes people out of Indiana into Chicago might be desirable to the passengers, but it would be less attractive to the state for either tax revenue or general economic impact on Indiana.

And Tadman's point about those counties being more urban is also perfectly true. Tadman may have misunderstood me; I wasn't suggesting that the Hoosier State would work as a commuter train; more the opposite: since it isn't a commuter train the state has little incentive to pay to run it, because it isn't drawing money into Indiana.

Mr. Norman: forgive me, I thought Iowa Pacific was going bankrupt and being reorganized; memory playing tricks on me, I guess. But the point's the same: Amtrak didn't kill off the IP Hoosier State; the IP killed it off.

To be fair to Amtrak, too, though, doesn't it make sense that the one train on the Amtrak system that was using the oldest equipment (not counting the totally rebuilt NC cars, maybe, but maybe even older than them) and using equipment that didn't belong to Amtrak but which Amtrak was responsible for operating would get more inspections than any other train? Wasn't it one of the biggest risks? I know everyone thinks Amtrak was trying to make the Hoosier State hard to run, but isn't it just possible that the relevant Amtrak officials just didn't trust IP and its equipment for long-haul service with Amtrak and its crews likely to get blamed for anything that went wrong. Do we have evidence that Amtrak was refusing IP equipment for particular problems but allowing Amtrak equipment to run with the same problems -- ie applying different standards during inspections? That would be a better sign of unfairness.

And, finally, why should Amtrak have been happy about the state going out of its way to try not to use Amtrak because some Indiana politicians were ideologically opposed to Amtrak? It wat the time that that was at least part of what was going on. First PRIIA, which many Indiana reps and senators probably voted for, forced Amtrak to start charging for a train it used to run on its own. Then the govt of Indiana got mad at Amtrak for following the law, and tried to find a way around Amtrak. Amtrak was supposed to cooperate with that?

[Tadman]

Looking at the airline parallel, you could also outsource locomotive overhaul the way that airlines have with aircraft and aircraft engine overhaul to third parties. Sure, the unions hate that, but there are private employers who can do things smarter and more efficient.

This is a good point. There are quite a few passenger carriers that aren't really big enough to maintain their own stuff, so other carriers or Amtrak maintain it. When we discuss MBTA and running electrics on the NEC, the answer is always "it's not going to happen - nobody wants an orphan fleet". Why is it an orphan fleet? Because of a purple stripe? Contract maintenance out to Amtrak. Same would probably work for Amtrak's engines. Why not send them to a contract shop or Class I for a lot of the work? The only reason right now is because they have Beech Grove and paid little for it.

Long term, that answer that can only really be arrived at by an outside accountant, and I assume Amtrak has already gone through those hoops a few times. I suspect it happened when PC assets were handed over in 1975 and again when Amtrak sunk some serious coin into the place around 1990. It probably also happens every time they build a new maintenance facility like the LA or Seattle shop, and they have to justify such expenditure over sending the power to BNSF's shop across town.

[Nasadowsk]

When we discuss MBTA and running electrics on the NEC, the answer is always "it's not going to happen - nobody wants an orphan fleet". Why is it an orphan fleet? Because of a purple stripe? Contract maintenance out to Amtrak.

Take a sheet of paper.

Draw a box.

Write 'Transit Authority thinking' in it.

There's your answer.

[dowlingm]

things Rochelle would have going for it as a trailer shop: Rochelle and the State would probably like to have the well paying jobs they thought Nippon would provide in the Midwest order (and thus might contribute to any relocation), and the ability to tap Nippon workers not yet in employment elsewhere. Amtrak may not want to risk the blowback from both IN’s senators *and* the VP’s office, however.

[Tadman]

When we discuss MBTA and running electrics on the NEC, the answer is always "it's not going to happen - nobody wants an orphan fleet". Why is it an orphan fleet? Because of a purple stripe? Contract maintenance out to Amtrak.

Take a sheet of paper.

Draw a box.

Write 'Transit Authority thinking' in it.

There's your answer.

Pretty much. It's the same reason South Shore and Metra have adjacent 1500vDC properties and basically share nothing, IE line car, shops, etc...

things Rochelle would have going for it as a trailer shop: Rochelle and the State would probably like to have the well paying jobs they thought Nippon would provide in the Midwest order (and thus might contribute to any relocation), and the ability to tap Nippon workers not yet in employment elsewhere. Amtrak may not want to risk the blowback from both IN’s senators *and* the VP’s office, however.

Yeah, Illinois would like those jobs for sure. I wouldn't worry too much about Indiana. I suspect there would be quite a few takers for Beech Grove. NRE could basically pick up and move tomorrow. Same machinery and plant, same skilled tradesmen, much friendlier state.

[AgentSkelly]

I’m a little rusty but I think most of the outfits that you would outsource maintenance ops are union as well or have a cross craft agreement (do those still exist?)

[justalurker66]

It's the same reason South Shore and Metra have adjacent 1500vDC properties and basically share nothing, IE line car, shops, etc...

Historically started by different companies and owned now by different entities. NICTD uses Metra's substations and overhead wire while on Metra property.
If it were one agency I'd want to see the same amount of equipment and shops they have now. There might be a couple more trains from Hegeswich to Randolph - and the "Gary Trains" would carry passengers within Metra territory. As one agency Metra would have probably dumped everything east of Gary as a "cost savings" and provided less service ... keeping the lines separate has allowed the service to continue. I'm certainly not going to argue in favor of any scheme that would reduce service on the South Shore.

With the total miles of electrified track having two line cars makes sense. Having shops in Michigan City makes sense for the South Shore equipment (instead of deadheading it to KYD) and it would not make sense to deadhead MED cars to Michigan City. It should be noted that the West Lake line will have their own maintenance shops in Hammond. With the total number of cars growing additional shop space is needed.

With all the diesel and non-powered cars on the diesel lines how many shop facilites does Metra have for non-Med trains?

[BandA]

Cutting off funding is Indiana's choice (perhaps due to Amtrak's high fees). I assume Beech Grove will find 3x a week service sufficient.

[StLouSteve]

Makes me sad that what once was the greatest rail city in the world will no longer have a train to a major city less than 200 miles away. Seems further evidence that our country is falling back into second tier status.

It might not be so bad if we occasionally saw new routes reappear, but it now seems that when a line disappears, it is almost impossible to restore. (Broadway, National Limited, Sunset east of New Orleans, etc).

[justalurker66]

Makes me sad that what once was the greatest rail city in the world will no longer have a train to a major city less than 200 miles away. Seems further evidence that our country is falling back into second tier status.

The Cardinal survives.