Amtrak Empire Builder 2nd Daily Frequency Chicago - St Paul

[Tadman]

I've got a trip to this station planned in a month, so I'll provide a brief report afterward.

It's a shame they sunk so much money into the service for 1x/day each way. MSP strikes me as a nice hub for another RT to Chicago every day, a 1-2x/day to Duluth, and a Grand Forks train (didn't GN have one of these?). GIven the left-leanings of Minnesota, I'm surprise they haven't looked at some sort of state-sponsored trains. After driving to Duluth once (and doing it again soon), I'd love to take the train all the way.

[mtuandrew]

I'm not sure why the state hasn't publicly approached Amtrak about regional service. Part of it might have to do with the lukewarm reception of the Northstar commuter service to Big Lake, another part might relate to Amtrak's lack of rolling stock. They are moving ahead with Duluth service (the Northern Lights Express) at least, but I don't know when that will actually happen.

But yeah, GN had a Grand Forks train - the Winnipeg Limited, via St. Cloud, Alexandria, Fargo, Grand Forks, Crookston, and Noyes. I'd like to see that again, even if just as a connecting train from Grand Forks to Winnipeg.

[Suburban Station]

MSP-chicago corridor service is a natural. I've heard there has been some interest

[Bob Roberts]

But given the current political climate of Wisconsin they will have a nasty free rider problem until things change in Madison.

[Suburban Station]

c'est la vie, most of the places that would drive the ridership are in MN anyway. just make you sure it only stops where it is profitable to the train to do so.

[mtuandrew]

I don't know about that. Wisconsin Dells is a big draw, as is La Crosse, and a lot of people use both Portage and Columbus as the Madison stop. It'd be worth looking at NARP and Amtrak numbers. Also, I have a feeling that Wisconsin might be willing to share costs with Minnesota for a single train without specialized equipment.

And if Wisconsin still refuses to play ball, Minnesota could try to get Iowa and Illinois on board instead - CP from St. Paul to Dubuque, CN from Dubuque to Chicago.

[Tadman]

I may be way out of turn here, but didn't the Burlington run the Twin Zephyr up the Mississippi? BNSF is usually a good passenger partner, too.

[mtuandrew]

Yes they did - the Twin Zephyr, the NCL, the Builder, and any other GN/NP run-through trains. The current Builder often detours over BNSF during flood season, and usually makes excellent time when it does.

That said, BNSF is more congested than CP, has less on-line population, and there aren't any active Amtrak stations between Aurora and St. Paul. Let's not overthink the issue, since CP will bend over backwards for whoever brings a dump truck of money to Calgary.

[EricL]

The current Builder often detours over BNSF during flood season, and usually makes excellent time when it does.

Depends how one might define "excellent".... some of us who have operated those detours jokingly referred to the reroute as "the Death March". I am very glad to see BNSF investing some money into improving this route. As it was before, LaCrosse to Savanna was nothing but a conveyor belt (the few and far-between CTC islands & crossovers were not really of much use); Savanna-Aurora was simply first-come-first-into-the-siding, with no obvious regard to train priority. The signaling was antiquated on the C&I, too, with straight Approach'es (instead of Approach Diverging/Approach Restricting) and non bonded sidings.

That said, BNSF is more congested than CP, has less on-line population, and there aren't any active Amtrak stations between Aurora and St. Paul. Let's not overthink the issue, since CP will bend over backwards for whoever brings a dump truck of money to Calgary.

probably not under EHH, they won't... unless it is several dump trucks' worth, and the existing freight traffic is very low... (which of course it is NOT on the CP/Soo/Milw "LaCrosse Division"; I don't know much about traffic levels on the Iowa side, but major track and signal improvements would be needed over there anyway)
Fred Green's administration might have gone for it, if it were planned and done right, but the current Harrison/Creel mafia is very hostile to any idea that doesn't reduce the operating ratio and increase shareholder return. Lots of people have quit/been fired all throughout the company, for daring to cross the new management.
(there is still a handful of "friendly" people in dispatching and operations - these are some of the older heads who truly know how to run the railroad, including Amtrak... I think the main reason they're still kept around is that it quickly becomes obvious how the entire operation - freight, passenger, and all - quickly devolves whenever they're not there)

[Suburban Station]

I don't know about that. Wisconsin Dells is a big draw, as is La Crosse, and a lot of people use both Portage and Columbus as the Madison stop. It'd be worth looking at NARP and Amtrak numbers. Also, I have a feeling that Wisconsin might be willing to share costs with Minnesota for a single train without specialized equipment.

And if Wisconsin still refuses to play ball, Minnesota could try to get Iowa and Illinois on board instead - CP from St. Paul to Dubuque, CN from Dubuque to Chicago.

The majority of the riders will come from the twin cities. And milwaukee (outside chicago). It's likely the other stations would be worth making at least seasonally. It's the nature of intercity ridership. Ny is a third of all amtrak ridership. One station

[gokeefe]

A very interesting piece about the changing dynamics of at the depot:

For 20 years, Christos Greek Restaurant has hosted events and served lunch to St. Paul’s business community in the elegant, echoing Head House of Union Depot.

That run will come to an end May 31 when the company’s lease expires. Christos owner Gus Parpas said he could not come to an agreement with the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority, which owns the building, on renewing the lease.
...
Why the expanded hours and services? “It’s just listening to your customers,” said Ramsey County Commissioner Rafael Ortega, who is chairman of the authority. He said he has heard from neighbors in the area who want the venue to have a full range of services.

The authority is trying to attract more businesses and customers at Union Depot, which reopened as a transportation center in 2012 after a $243 million renovation. Parpas said the reopening also factored into his decision to leave.

“The venue is changing dramatically. It’s now a public place. There’s all sorts of people walking through,” he said, and that hubbub is hurting his ability to attract banquet events — a key piece of the company’s business at the site. Christos has previously held political events, book awards and upscale wedding receptions, Parpas said, but “with all that interference we simply cannot bring them in.”

Christos has two other locations, in Minneapolis and Minnetonka, that will remain open.

Although I'm sure they're significant lease and rent rates don't seem to be in dispute. It's the business model of the current vendor were privacy has significant value. Fascinating to see how these things change. It makes me think of Kansas City and Chicago where the old "Harvey House" restaurants failed due to all of the changes to pedestrian traffic patterns.

[mtuandrew]

That's kind of a shame. Christos is one of the old-line ethnic restaurants in the Twin Cities, like the original sit-down Leeann Chin (pre-fast food expansion era), and I enjoyed its Union Depot location and its food. Glad I can still get my spanakopita at its other locations. That said, the restaurant is right dead center in the concourse, which makes it obnoxious for passengers and visitors.

I wonder what will replace it, and in what area of the building. RCRRA is serious about bringing business to SPUD, just as St. Paul is serious about expanding Lowertown generally as a destination, and the Depot would still be a good place for a sit-down restaurant. It's also valuable as an event rental space - my fiancee took me to a black-tie event hosted in the concourse some years ago. (My first guess on a bidder: http://www.damico.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.)

[gokeefe]

I think the outcome depends in part on how "upscale" the Authority wants the restaurant to be. This could end up going the other direction as well, e.g. Aramark. Upscale dining, combined with vendor retail options and catering sounds like something for a large diversified foodservice company.

[Jeff Smith]

Admin: Repurposing; this topic was originally about the routing over which heritage roads. This discussion is for only this portion of the current Empire Builder routing; of course the new frequency would be named something else. EB Junior?

Looking to add a second frequency to the St. Paul - Chicago corridor: Post Bulletin

Relevant portion:

High-Speed Rail Commission begins study for second Amtrak train

Brian Todd, [email protected] Sep 2, 2016
RED WING — The Minnesota High-Speed Rail Commission on Thursday outlined its plans and timetable to study the feasibility of adding a second Amtrak train to the St. Paul to Chicago line.

Praveena Pidaparthi, project manager for the Minnesota Department of Transportation, said MnDOT would begin a study to evaluate the operations of a second passenger train, including how it would operate within the freight schedule on the track and cost estimates on any track improvements needed to accommodate the additional train.

The MnDOT study comes after Amtrak conducted a ridership and feasibility study of its own to recommend a second passenger train in 2015.
...

[Penn Central]

One year later in the fall of 1963, I rode the Milwaukee Road and I remember it was fast, scenic and very rough. I walked through the train
at the time and the whole train was rough riding.
Noel Weaver

I rode the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago in June and we were an hour late at MSP due to freight interference from BNSF. Half of that time was made up before our arrival in CHI. I recall eating lunch on this portion and the track was smooth and relatively fast with 79mph max. Perhaps CP does a better job at maintaining this track now than MILW did in 1963. I wanted to check out the refurbished St Paul Union Depot but because we were running late the station time was cut short and the depot was a long walk from the platform, so I didn't make it.