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  • Amtrak Tennessee Proposals: Memphis - Nashville - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1534758  by ryanch
 
gokeefe wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:08 pm

My take on the situation so far is tea-leaf reading of the politics. They look pretty good. I would imagine Amtrak did quite a bit of work behind the scenes before going to a legislative hearing. Hence, the relatively positive reception.
What I read was a Democrat as sponsor of legislation in a legislature that's about 3/4s Republican. Which has me attributing the relatively positive response to the fact that no one even sees a need to disparage the proposal.

Is there some sign that I missed that makes you more sanguine?

I tend to agree with the analysis of Atlanta. Two trains to a single destination, plus the Crescent, in a very large city isn't a big enough footprint to even make Atlanta aware of Amtrak.

You had mentioned the Virginia model. But the Virginia model is completely different. It wasn't built in a vaccuum. Instead, they built on through-routing to the NEC to a) give people multiple time-competitive destinations, and b) draw riders bound for VA from places that are already very aware of Amtrak.

If Amtrak is interested in building Tennessee into the system, Memphis should be the focus, not Nashville. In Memphis, you can pursue a variant of the Virginia model -- connecting to two existing successful hubs, Chicago and St. Louis, that both have a significant number of trains and an Amtrak-aware public. Extension of the Saluki/Illini would be relatively cheap (I don't mean to dismiss costs, but compared to a new, slow-running train to one city that has no existing plausible station, on tracks that don't currently host passenger rail, on a route that will certainly require new equipment rather than utilization of existing cars.) There are also plausible ways to extend Rail Runners from St. Louis as well, though it likely requires a train set or two and other significant costs, but likely not at the scale required to create Atlanta/Nashville from scratch. I would guess the costs of a corridor train to New Orleans on the City of routing would also be lower than the cost of virgin service.

And the payoff is much larger. You've substantially improved the St. Louis hub by adding another regional destination, pushing Amtrak much higher on the list of transportation options there. You've given Chicagoans more than one timing to/from Memphis, strengthening Amtrak in its big Midwestern hub. And you've created the beginnings of a hub in Memphis.

To me the point of hubs isn't so much connections to other trains, though that helps a little. The point of a hub is that, while in most places Amtrak isn't even on the list of options people think of, when Amtrak offers sufficient trains to a sufficient number of destinations, it becomes a natural part of travel planning.

I think that's why Amtrak does loom larger in many rural communities and smaller cities. I grew up in Springfield, IL, where people gravitate to one of two places - Chicago and St. Louis. Air travel was very limited. If there was commercial air service in town, as an upper middle class kid, I never heard of anyone taking it. But Amtrak served both major destinations. There's also the fact that in a smaller city, you're much more likely to see the train. Even those who drove (the vast majority) were aware of Amtrak.

In larger cities, that kind of awareness depends on serving enough regional destinations frequently enough. I don't think the Nashville proposal is sufficient to make a splash there or in Atlanta.

And, I don't believe you need Nashville for in-state political support. Politicians routinely accept regional tradeoffs - road-building in one place vs. a different type of transportation spending elsewhere. Memphis is a place with a chance of success. Amtrak should be targeting Memphis hard.
 #1534761  by mtuandrew
 
Build STL-MEM and ATL-Chattanooga and throw a few more bucks to Music City Star (I can’t remember the new name), and you’ll get your cross-Tennessee rail before long.
 #1534763  by Bob Roberts
 
ryanch wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:26 pm In larger cities, that kind of awareness depends on serving enough regional destinations frequently enough. I don't think the Nashville proposal is sufficient to make a splash there or in Atlanta.
While I want to be upbeat about Amtrak expansion in the South, I agree with your assessment that small proposals (like Atlanta-Nashville) are unlikely to get Georgia to make the necessary investments in keeping viable service.

Having said that, I can see Atlanta becoming a viable rail hub, although it won't be cheap. These intercity routes, when overlayed with Atlanta commuter rail which has been '10 years away' for the past 30 years, would create a strong foundation to build Virginia-light rail service:

Birmingham-Atlanta-Charlotte (the SC portion of the route being particularly strong)
Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Savannah
Atlanta-Montgomery-Mobile
Atlanta-Augusta-Columbia-Charleston (in a fantasy world where SC gives a damn)
Atlanta-Jacksonville (possibly from Savannah)

Georgia has long struggled to make Atlanta part of the state (more specifically pushing some of Atlanta's economy into the hinterlands). Intercity rail might be one way for Georgia to show they are trying. Putting passable corridor service (3 a day?) on three of these routes might be enough to push Georgia into a Virginia-light model of rail development -- although for an intercity hub to work Atlanta commuter service would need to be well received. Given how dispersed the Atlanta employment market is, that is not a sure thing.

The other Atlanta wild-card is capacity limitations at Hartsfield-Jackson. Its quickly going to become cheaper to displace some local flight connections with rail (particularly in a world with carbon pricing).

As a Charlottean I would prefer to see Atlanta drop the ball on this and allow Charlotte to become the SE rail hub. A few $10s of billions for a tunnel through the Blue Ridge would probably do the trick. Charlotte-Asheville-Knoxville-Nashville HSADR anyone? (High Speed Appalachian Development Rail). Honestly such a thing is no more far-fetched than remaking Atlanta into an intercity rail hub.
 #1534766  by gokeefe
 
ryanch wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:26 pmYou had mentioned the Virginia model. But the Virginia model is completely different. It wasn't built in a vaccuum. Instead, they built on through-routing to the NEC to a) give people multiple time-competitive destinations, and b) draw riders bound for VA from places that are already very aware of Amtrak.
I'm only speaking of the political comparison. Virginia arrived at a non-partisan consensus in favor of rail due to congestion. This entire encounter intrigues me and has a series of indicators present that, based on my prior experience, seem to signal something bigger is afoot.

Amtrak in general tends to be very risk averse in politics. I think they did a lot of background work long before they were willing to go public. I also think this meeting is an indication that they have bi-partisan support. I'm sure it isn't "universal" but there are likely proponents (officeholders) on both sides of the aisle.

Based on Amtrak's willingness to go public I would not be surprised if a bi-partisan group of legislators reached out to them in order to start this conversation.

With regards to the logistics, routing and development that is all fodder for a feasibility study. I'm sure there are issues and price tags and host railroads to negotiate with. In my opinion none of that matters right now. The political mold is being shaped and unlike the Southern Rail Commission with its flawed support from Alabama this one looks pretty good.
Last edited by gokeefe on Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1534786  by electricron
 
dowlingm wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:42 pm This is solid analysis but my question would be how Atlanta/Georgia can get commuter regional rail going as Nashville did (not just equipment and crewing but enough infrastructure investment to make the Class 1s go along) such that Amtrak would merely be a subsidiary user of the facility, and dwell times minimized with efficient platform layouts with timing/servicing/crew changes happening elsewhere? GO Transit’s trainsets deliver 1500 seats plus standees with every peak movement. Crescent currently arrives/departs in rush directions from/to Gainesville but presumably not anywhere near the sort of OTP needed by commuters.
Atlanta is not Toronto. GO Transit is not affiliated with the City of Toronto, it is under the admistration of the Province of Ontario.
https://www.gotransit.com/en/about-us/o ... gementteam
The population of the Province Ontario was estimated at 14,659,616 in 2016.
The population of the State of Georgia was estimated at 10,617,423 in 2019.
MARTA is not affiliated directly with the State of Georgia, it is an independent multi-county transit agency authority approved by three counties: Fulton, DeKalb, and Clayton - that allows collecting a penny sales tax. MARTA's total budget for 2020 is $1.1 Billion.
Meanwhile, GO Transit's operating budget is $1.15 Billion (Canadian), with a separate capital budget of $3.86 Billion (Canadian) coming from outside sources (Ontario and Canada).

When countries, states, provinces, and cities fund transit agencies differently, expect different results. Please stop comparing apples to oranges.
 #1534810  by Gilbert B Norman
 
electricron wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:29 pm.
MARTA is not affiliated directly with the State of Georgia, it is an independent multi-county transit agency authority approved by three counties: Fulton, DeKalb, and Clayton - that allows collecting a penny sales tax. MARTA's total budget for 2020 is $1.1 Billion.......When countries, states, provinces, and cities fund transit agencies differently, expect different results.
Ron, I think this quite valid point you make, while essentially directed towards Metropolitan area transit, could well impact the State level funding philosophy of intercity transit.

First let me reiterate a point I've made at other discussions around here. County level of government is a strong, if not deciding factor, in whether transit projects move forth.

Ron notes that MARTA is a transit agency thst has rail in three counties - Fulton, DeKalb, Gwinett. Only trouble is that the Atlanta metropolitan area comprises four. The "Missing In Action" is Cobb County (Marietta, Kennesaw, Roswell, " Home of the Braves"). They want no part of MARTA (rail, and "as good as" no part of bus) but gleefully build "Lexus Lanes" along the 75 and 575.

But my point is with this County level participation of rail transit - even for the varietal where real need and acceptance exists, good luck in getting some "think I can" Chattanooga-Atlanta rail project moving.

Finally, I know of one Lexus that gets down there on occasion, with VIN JT.....3735, that has never seen a ....Lane. That's because it's mine!
 #1534867  by east point
 
Gilbert you have the counties wrong. MARTA has Fulton, DeKalb, and Now Clayton County ( 2016) as part. City of Atlanta is a part as well. Gwinnett and Cobb county still have lately rejected entering in MARTA, The votes last time were much closer but still has not passed. The commuter rail still is a possibility but the paid toll roadways has probably delayed higher salaried person support in those two counties. 3 of the 10 most congested intersections in the US are on the northern perimeter I-285.
See wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropoli ... _Authority.

Atlanta was the rail hub of the south from the Civil war on. All RRs terminated in Atlanta except SOU RR and a bit of SAL. The statement " You have to go to heaven or hell by changing planes in Atlanta" I am told originated by substituting Plane for RR. Unfortunately the geography and the tearing down of adjacent Union and Terminal stations and the building of other structures in that gulch has really eliminated a station needed to be in central Atlanta. How Atlanta will get some of that rail hub back is a highly debated subject.
 #1534920  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. East Point, I'll stand corrected on the counties comprising the Atlanta metropolitan area. However, one year returning from the Atlanta Symphony to Dunwoody where I stay (Crowne or Hyatt, depending on rate, or the "points piggybank" balance), I missed the "change at Lindbergh" drill, and had myself a little "midnight railfan joyride". I thought that line through Chamblee was in Gwinett, but apparently I'm mistaken.

But Atlanta and its "world's worst drivers" display their car centricity when I see the 75's Lexus Lanes (again, I know one Lex that's never been on 'em ), and realize they built a ballpark out there. Funny how I remember going to the Airport on MARTA, and here were young "professional looking" people dressed in baseball paraphernalia and carrying plastic tomahawks. Now, I'm guessing using public transportation, where at the event, you could drink whatever you want, is history - well, save that torturous routing I linked earlier.

I'm in Atlanta three-four times a year. I have my "Breezy" card, and often use MARTA rail. I understand Cobb is a fast growing and affluent county. Why they resist MARTA in favor of Lexus Lanes escapes me.

Lest we forget, there are people that will never ride a bus, but will ride a train. I'm one of 'em - and if I lived in Atlanta, it likely would be in Cobb County.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1534925  by Bob Roberts
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:13 am I understand Cobb is a fast growing and affluent county. Why they resist MARTA in favor of Lexus Lanes escapes me.
While I hate to be reductionist about it, Cobb and Gwinett were created as the white-flight suburbs of Atlanta in the early 1970s, so when it was time to vote on funding MARTA the campaigns always boiled down to some variant of dog whistles like ‘MARTA will only bring Atlanta’s crime’ to Cobb. Being separate from the city is viewed as a plus in Cobb (Gwinett separatism has faded a bit as it has become more diverse) and the traffic moat that separates Cobb from Atlanta is sometimes considered a feature by residents rather than a bug.

Edit: you can see the 1961 system plan map here: https://twitter.com/seeskott/status/115 ... 36385?s=21
The Bankhead stub branch was planned to go up to Marietta. The Chamblee / Doraville (both in DeKalbj was planned to extend to Norcross. There was also a branch from Lindburgh to Druid Hills (via Emory) that never got built.
 #1615744  by Jeff Smith
 
https://www.wkrn.com/news/local-news/na ... ville/amp/
Will Amtrak return to Nashville?

Amtrak proposed using some of that money to build a passenger railway connection from Atlanta to Chattanooga and Nashville, with multiple stops in between.

Now, the Federal Railroad Administration is looking for proposals.

Before the Tennessee Department of Transportation (TDOT) can apply, they have to pick between two routes for the FRA to study — Nashville to Chattanooga or Nashville to Memphis
 #1616245  by Greg Moore
 
I'll take it! And I'd even ride it occasionally. Some good caving spots out there.

That said, it would make sense to explore a continuation to Carbondale or St. Louis. Network is key. The more connections, the more likely it is people will ride it.

But for now, I'd take this.
 #1616254  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Moore, I get the feeling you know the topography over which the NC&StL is laid.

Nashville-Chattanooga is 125 highway; 151 by rail. While the first 69 - highway or rail Nashville-Tullahoma - is flat terrain, "the rest of the way" will make for a "different experience".

Even if Chessie was prepared to "give 'em her railroad", the "best L&N train" - the Georgian - made Chattanooga to Nashville 3hr 2min (1958 PTT I have). If a passenger train could "make it" today in 3.5hrs (compared with 2.25 on the 24; and I'll bet Mr. Google's and other leadfoots have 2hr flat in mind), I'd be amazed.

Now really, anyone REALLY think Chessie will "give 'em her road"?

This is simply a non starter for 21st century passenger railroading, and will get no further than that Connect US coloring book prepared for Joe's incoming administration.

disclaimer: author starts a road trip to Boca today; expects to pass through the noted area tomorrow.
 #1616459  by eolesen
 
Tennessee is three regions that economically and historically have little to do with each other than being combined into a single state (hence the three stars on the state flag...). There's no real need to connect east-west by rail. It makes more sense to do the north-south connections i.e. Memphis with Chicago and St. Louis; Nashville with Birmingham and Louisville/Indianapolis, and Chattanooga with Atlanta. Maybe Knoxville as an extension to Chattanooga & Atlanta.
 #1623577  by Jeff Smith
 
https://www.wkrn.com/news/tennessee-pol ... uture/amp/
Tennessee takes small step toward bringing passenger rail trains to the state
...
“The state has submitted an identification application to the Federal Rail Administration (FRA) for service from Memphis east to Nashville, on to Chattanooga, and to Atlanta,” Amtrak CEO Stephen J. Gardner said.
...
A line connecting Memphis to Nashville and Chattanooga (and eventually on to Atlanta) is one that has the attention of Amtrak.

“That’s a very interesting corridor, one that holds a lot of promise,” Gardner said. “The process now will be for the FRA to consider those applications for the Corridor Development Program.”
...
The line is a potential popular spot because railroads owned by CSX already exist. Powell said potential stops between Nashville and Chattanooga could include Murfreesboro, Shelbyville, and Tullahoma.
...
Eventually, Powell said the goal is to make the first connection between Nashville and Chattanooga before expanding to Memphis and Atlanta. From there, he’d like to see another line connecting Knoxville, the Tri-Cities, and Nashville.
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