Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

[jlichyen]

My understanding is that any increase in movements on Grand Junction will cause a huge fouling of traffic on all the at-grade crossings in downtown Cambridge, putting a large non-monetary cost on that routing.

The other side of a Worcester-Ayer routing is that, there's a large amount of suburban sprawl unservicable even with a shuttle bus now, but if the path is made usable by Amtrak, the presence or potential for stations will provide a reason for denser development. I mean, this is a 20+ year kind of plan, and I'm leaning into speculative advocacy, but that's kind of what's already been happening in Worcester, Portland, and anywhere within spitting distance of a station.

[bostontrainguy]

Maybe not ideal, but a train running via the Grand Junction could stop at the new West Station and avoid all of the time consuming moves necessary to serve North or South Station(s).

There was a Grand Junction study that presented options for its use and one option had the line speed up to 40 mph. Coordination with traffic signals would result in pretty short street blockages.

[Ridgefielder]

Maybe not ideal, but a train running via the Grand Junction could stop at the new West Station and avoid all of the time consuming moves necessary to serve North or South Station(s).

There was a Grand Junction study that presented options for its use and one option had the line speed up to 40 mph. Coordination with traffic signals would result in pretty short street blockages.

Even if the train didn't *serve* South Station, it would have to make a reverse move somewhere between Back Bay and South Station in order to get from heading eastbound on the NEC to running westbound on the B&A; either that or switch to the Franklin Line at Readville and then go around the horn at Tower 1. Then reverse directions again to get onto the Grand Junction, in the process fouling one track of the B&A.

You could easily make Back Bay the only Boston stop for this service. The problem I see is all the direction changes and looping around to get through the city. From eyeballing it I'd think you're going to burn up at least 45mins if not an hour between Readville and West Medford.

[charlesriverbranch]

I think it's noteworthy that prior to Amtrak there was never a train that ran NYC -> Boston -> Portland. The State of Maine always went via Worcester, bypassing Boston. Surely if it had made sense to use the Grand Junction, the B&M/New Haven/B&A would have done so.

[MEC407]

I finally got around to riding the DE north of Portland yesterday for the first time. It's been one of those "I gotta do that one of these days" things that's been on my agenda since the extension opened, but for various reasons I didn't get to it until yesterday.

Anyway, once we left the Mountain Branch and were on the mainline, I noticed that we crawled along at a snail's pace from Mountain Junction to approximately Park Avenue. It felt like we were on stick rail. Is there a reason why our speed was so low and is there a reason why the track we were on was never upgraded to CWR?

Once we were past Park Avenue, our speed increased a bit but was still not particularly fast. It felt like we were going faster once we got past Brighton Ave, despite the 8 or more grade crossings up ahead, and once we got past Allen Avenue, we were really cranking, at least for a little while.

Still, we were 10 minutes late arriving in Freeport — which is a significant delay when the scheduled time between Portland and Freeport is 30 minutes.

Thoughts, anyone?

[gokeefe]

Also worth suggesting that any NYP-BON-POR train reverses ends at BON.

That is a very thoughtful idea which greatly reduces operational risk and other potential complications.

[gokeefe]

Thoughts, anyone?

Sounds like they may have been running on the second track (not sure of the track number but it's the easterly of the two) which I do not believe was upgraded. No way to know for sure why that would happen.

I can't speak to why the rest of Portland was so slow. The trains I've seen going through Woodford's corner have been running around 20+ MPH (maybe 30). I'm assuming you were going about 5-10 MPH?

[gokeefe]

I think it's noteworthy that prior to Amtrak there was never a train that ran NYC -> Boston -> Portland. The State of Maine always went via Worcester, bypassing Boston. Surely if it had made sense to use the Grand Junction, the B&M/New Haven/B&A would have done so.

I've wondered about the same question myself and even going back to 1900-1910 (when there were all kinds of "exotic" routings) I haven't been able to find any evidence of passenger trains running on Grand Junction.

The most improbable discovery was a sleeper departing Boston North Station running via the B&M (Troy) and NYC through to Chicago on the Lake Shore Limited ca. 1910.

I am having a very hard time believing it "never" happened but if it did the practice seems to have ended prior to 1900.

[MEC407]

My Google Maps mobile app wouldn't tell me how fast we were going [can anyone recommend a free mobile app that does that?]. I don't want to put anyone at risk by guesstimating our speed but it felt reeeeeally slow between Mountain Junction and Park Ave and I think that's where we lost a lot of our time. There were also a couple of noticeable slowdowns that I think were near Yarmouth Junction and Royal Junction, but I can't swear to it.

[MEC407]

Also wanted to mention that the $6 cheeseburger in the café car is very filling. The beef patty is thick and must weigh almost half a pound. It's not the most flavorful or juicy beef patty you'll ever eat, but it really hits the spot if you're hungry. Just be sure to grab some condiment and salt/pepper packets to dress it to your liking.

[gokeefe]

Surely if it had made sense to use the Grand Junction, the B&M/New Haven/B&A would have done so.

I'm not convinced of that logic given the highly competitive nature of the railroads at that time. Amtrak tends to think this way when they have willing host railroads but back then more route miles meant greater profits.

For precise reasons that I have yet to discover the State of Maine had at least four different routes in it's history (via Springfield, via Putnam, via New London and via Providence). Some of those changes were related to hurricane damage late in history but the shift from Springfield may have come from a desire to cut the B&A out of the rate division.

[gokeefe]

Also wanted to mention that the $6 cheeseburger in the café car is very filling.

That hamburger is a point of pride for NexDine which operates the Downeaster cafe. I'm guessing Amtrak and Aramark are jealous.

[Ridgefielder]

Surely if it had made sense to use the Grand Junction, the B&M/New Haven/B&A would have done so.

I'm not convinced of that logic given the highly competitive nature of the railroads at that time. Amtrak tends to think this way when they have willing host railroads but back then more route miles meant greater profits.

That was true for freight, but for passengers co-operation was the norm. There were plenty of joint NH/B&A trains that ran New York-Boston via Hartford and Springfield, for instance-- I think at least one frequency lasted until the end of the New Haven in 1968. Speed and ease of operation were the main consideration.

For precise reasons that I have yet to discover the State of Maine had at least four different routes in it's history (via Springfield, via Putnam, via New London and via Providence). Some of those changes were related to hurricane damage late in history but the shift from Springfield may have come from a desire to cut the B&A out of the rate division.

As I recall the shifts were made as a traffic-balancing move over the years, as freight patterns shifted. Remember, though, that for a while in the early 20th century the New Haven had majority ownership and control of the B&M and MEC, and even after that ended they maintained joint engine terminal facilities at Worcester. Cutting the B&A out might have just been an outgrowth of that association-- I think NH/B&M power even ran through Worcester on the Maine trains at various points in time.

[Hux]

Also wanted to mention that the $6 cheeseburger in the café car is very filling. The beef patty is thick and must weigh almost half a pound. It's not the most flavorful or juicy beef patty you'll ever eat, but it really hits the spot if you're hungry. Just be sure to grab some condiment and salt/pepper packets to dress it to your liking.

Montreal Seasoning. Don't leave home without it.

[MEC407]

Good idea!