Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

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mtuandrew
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by mtuandrew » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:33 pm

I’m guessing Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, and CRRC put in bids. Possibly Hitachi?

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by gokeefe » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:28 pm

Another milestone in Amtrak's "decade of progress" ...
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by John_Perkowski » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:13 am

No matter who is announced, the award will be issued with a hold work order until the inevitable protests clear the General Accounting Office. That may take a while.
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WhartonAndNorthern
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by WhartonAndNorthern » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:50 am

John_Perkowski wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:13 am
No matter who is announced, the award will be issued with a hold work order until the inevitable protests clear the General Accounting Office. That may take a while.
I don't know. While the language of the contracting process is similar to the federal process (RFP, SOW, etc.), I imagine this is one time where Amtrak can play the "we're a private company" game.

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by Tadman » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:10 pm

mtuandrew wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:06 pm
electricron wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:41 am
That case study should start with the V-I procurement. All Viewliners have been built to a design Amtrak owns from initial design to manufacturing floor changes. Every single one is therefore a custom build. Custom build is never cheaper than off the shelf.
It’s a procurement model that worked well for the N&W and the Milwaukee, which had their own manufacturing facilities.
I don’t know that you can make that assertion, the Milwaukee was not known for good decisions and was perpetually broke. The South Milwaukee shops also horrendously botched the Bipolar rebuild leading to early retirement and scrapping.

Can you imagine Beech Grove building the AEM7 replacement? Further, most roads are moving away from having multiple heavy shops and farm lots out to NRE and similar.
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:29 pm

Tadman wrote:I don’t know that you can make that assertion, the Milwaukee was not known for good decisions and was perpetually broke. The South Milwaukee shops also horrendously botched the Bipolar rebuild leading to early retirement and scrapping.
Mr. Dunville, I have to agree.

Considering that in the waning days, a CMO was outright fired for "irregularities" that I wondered about as an Auditor, but had best "keep to myself" I quickly came to the conclusion "what is this outfit" I hired on to?

But the "paychecks cleared" and I was having fun traveling about the System; so I stayed until "The Bankruptcy" changed everything. I "checked out" end of '81 (did one day during '82 to get my four weeks vacation).

Literalman
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by Literalman » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:12 pm

A minor name correction: in 2004 the General Accounting Office changed its name to Government Accountability Office. Same initials.
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urr304
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by urr304 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:28 am

It is amazing, I rode my first Amtrak trains 43 years ago this past weekend [New London-NYP] and with Amfleet equipment mostly. Here we are all these years later and the Amfleets are 10 or more years older than the equipment they replaced.

IIRC Amfleet I equipment were ordered within the first two years, how long has this replacement process taken now?

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by gokeefe » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:36 pm

It has taken a while but a very successful rebuild program ten years ago and the "refresh" has reduced the urgency of this procurement when compared to other needs.

The ACS-64 program was bordering on "do or die" for Amtrak along with the P42 truck replacement.
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frequentflyer
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by frequentflyer » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am

Anderson stated at a recent congressional committee that Amtrak was leaning toward EMU/DMU as Amfleet replacements for the NEC.

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by Matt Johnson » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:53 am

frequentflyer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am
Anderson stated at a recent congressional committee that Amtrak was leaning toward EMU/DMU as Amfleet replacements for the NEC.
That makes so little sense when you consider Amtrak's stated desire to avoid fixed consists, its varied routes from North Carolina to western Pennsylvania to Vermont & Maine which use the NEC as a hub, and its practice of adjusting consists to meet demand (particularly around the Thanksgiving holiday and other peak travel periods).

Not to mention Amtrak's recently acquired fleet of ACS-64 electric locomotives!

frequentflyer
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by frequentflyer » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:54 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:53 am
frequentflyer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am
Anderson stated at a recent congressional committee that Amtrak was leaning toward EMU/DMU as Amfleet replacements for the NEC.
That makes so little sense when you consider Amtrak's stated desire to avoid fixed consists, its varied routes from North Carolina to western Pennsylvania to Vermont & Maine which use the NEC as a hub, and its practice of adjusting consists to meet demand (particularly around the Thanksgiving holiday and other peak travel periods).

Not to mention Amtrak's recently acquired fleet of ACS-64 electric locomotives!
Every commuter agency between DC and Boston will be in line to snap up 5-7 year old Sprinters by the time the first EMU/DMU is delivered.

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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by mtuandrew » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:58 pm

frequentflyer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am
Anderson stated at a recent congressional committee that Amtrak was leaning toward EMU/DMU as Amfleet replacements for the NEC.
Is that Amtrak’s preference or Anderson’s preference? I suspect it’s the latter - he’s used to managing fixed-consist variable-frequency service (need more capacity? Schedule another Airbus half an hour later), while Amtrak and American railroads generally have historically offered fixed-frequency variable-consist service due to timetable constraints.

electricron
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by electricron » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:04 pm

Matt Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:53 am
frequentflyer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am
Anderson stated at a recent congressional committee that Amtrak was leaning toward EMU/DMU as Amfleet replacements for the NEC.
That makes so little sense when you consider Amtrak's stated desire to avoid fixed consists, its varied routes from North Carolina to western Pennsylvania to Vermont & Maine which use the NEC as a hub, and its practice of adjusting consists to meet demand (particularly around the Thanksgiving holiday and other peak travel periods).
Not to mention Amtrak's recently acquired fleet of ACS-64 electric locomotives!
MU stands for multiple units, not multiple cars.
There are many EMUs and DMUs trains in Europe that have a maximum of 4 to 6 cars permanently attached per unit, with trains having two to three units coupled together depending upon ridership needs.
You need a 4 car train, use a 4 car unit.
You need a 5 car unit, use a 5 car unit or a 3 car unit and a 2 car unit
You need a 6 car train, use a 6 car unit or two units of 3 cars
You need a 7 car train, use a 4 car unit and a 3 car unit
You need an 8 car train, use two 4 car units or a 6 car unit and a 2 car unit
Generally, with multiple units you will not be able to walk the entire train, but who does so now anyways?
My point is that flexibility can be attained, both shorter and longer trains, by ordering units with different amount of cars per unit, then coupling the units together as needed.

The Midwest order for new Siemens cars also works with different married pairs and single units.
88 CARS FOR ILLINOIS
20 individual coach car - 2 doors
34 Coach car for business or cafe married pair - 2 doors
17 Business/economy car - 4 doors
17 Lounge cars - 4 doors
88 Total
As configured on the various trains
17 Business/economy cars married to 17 of the 34 coach cars
17 Lounge cars married to 17 of the 34 coach cars
20 individual coach cars added to trains needing more than a 4 car train.
The Midwest order to date does not include any cab cars.

frequentflyer
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Re: Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

Post by frequentflyer » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:31 pm

mtuandrew wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:58 pm
frequentflyer wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:12 am
Anderson stated at a recent congressional committee that Amtrak was leaning toward EMU/DMU as Amfleet replacements for the NEC.
Is that Amtrak’s preference or Anderson’s preference? I suspect it’s the latter - he’s used to managing fixed-consist variable-frequency service (need more capacity? Schedule another Airbus half an hour later), while Amtrak and American railroads generally have historically offered fixed-frequency variable-consist service due to timetable constraints.
https://youtu.be/rsqf2pN2lYE?t=8286

Start at 2:18

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