Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

[WashingtonPark]

"More unusual is Amtrak's novel claim that their new kitchenless dining system is actually preferred by millennials. I can't imagine how they came up with that" It's not so hard to believe. You wind up eating all three meals on Amtrak's schedule which they can't even keep after you make a reservation, only to be told they're all out of everything but fried fish and the vegetarian meal. When I travel I'll often get other meals at stops that are long enough even though I've already paid for the diner experience. The limited diner menu gets real old if you're traveling the distance on the Texas Eagle. The diner seems to be for novelty seekers, people over seventy and those on a land cruise, although since that describes the vast majority of their long distance business maybe they should keep it. If they wind up having more choices and more casual food that I can eat when I want to eat I certainly won't miss it. I can converse in the lounge. I truly wish they'd allow you to just pay for a bedroom instead of throwing the meal charge on top of it and forcing you to pay that.

[gokeefe]

For the people who complain, “but the government is getting people drunk,” look at how many Army bases and government installations have banquet halls, lounges, and officers’ clubs run by the government rather than contractors.

Quick point ... The military facilities you refer to are operated as "Non-Appropriated Funds" by the Exchange Service. They are supported by user fees and pay for their own utilities and operating costs and even a retirement plan for their employees (who are often military spouses). Facilities in other departments (Park Service, State Department etc) are in fact run by contractors.

Amtrak represents the very rare case where government appropriations do in fact provide some measure of direct support to food and beverage service (including alcohol) that is simply "open to the public" and not related to a formal official function.

On a different note I am happy to report that the Downeaster Cafe does a brisk business in Maine Craft Beer and cocktails. I do agree that Amtrak could have a $25 "Metroliner Martini" and would probably sell plenty of them.

[STrRedWolf]

What I do mind is a reliance on expensive sit-down dinners. I personally love having made-to-order fresh food but understand that’s an extravagance, and that a majority of the food I consume (that I don’t make myself) will come par-cooked, heat-and-serve, or ready-to-eat. That’s okay with me, as long as the food isn’t full of preservatives or otherwise unhealthy or unappetizing. (Also not a generational difference.)

This brings me back to my point that the dining car would do better if it doesn’t try to deliver massive surf-and-turf dinners and lumberjacks’ breakfasts. Don’t get me wrong - I still would love a good order of Railroad French Toast and a decent small steak simply for nostalgia, but I’d rather see Amtrak deliver lots of good breakfast burritos and soup-and-salad dinners than a few top-quality three-course meals. The more people it moves through the dining car, the more money it makes and the less people complain about how stuffy & formal it is.

(Also, I’m gonna keep yelling about a decent coffee and a good cocktail before and after hours.)

*shudder* Breakfast burritos... nnnnggghhhh fast food... Gimmie the Railroad French Toast, I'll take it back to my seat.

I think we got three classes of service here. We got the cafe class, which to be honest could have a lot more by expanding the actual "kitchenette" area. We have a middle tier, which is airplane food (which doesn't look that bad). And then we have top tier, made fresh, full diner/kitchen.

As a mixed bag introvert/extrovert Gen X'er, I'd go Cafe Class if I'm under 5 hours on a trip (Boston to Baltimore on the NEC or Philly-Pittsburgh). 8 hours? I'm looking at a half-decent lunch and a full-decent dinner, and the cafe ain't going to work there. The middle tier's good for that. Overnight? It's a toss-up between the middle and high, and I'll take ordering in advance if it helps Amtrak manage the food (as long as they also take a contingency order because train delays).

I can agree that Amtrak needs a wider menu, though. Makes me want to redesign it.

[mtuandrew]

Thanks for the clarification on that, Mr. O’Keefe. I didn’t realize they covered their entire budget in that way, not just F&B and salaries.


RedWolf: I should have clarified, I meant something made to order as I’ve seen at airport Chipotles, not a McDonalds or Taco Bell special In other words, something for which I’d spend $11 on a train (meaning $8 in a stationary restaurant.)

Amtrak’s dining options will have a hard time pleasing everyone who rides, but particularly those who ride multiple times per month expecting to have several different meal choices. It’s possible for them to move to a Panera model where they can assemble precooked carbs + protein + greens + toppings + sauce + seasoning and get a surprisingly large variation, and I think that best fulfills the “millennial” dining style the Post claims. (Don’t you love the variations on the “millennials are killing ____” theme?) Otherwise, I don’t know how to get much more variety without stocking many different kinds of meals, then having to guess which ones will get sold out.

[gokeefe]

Something that we have barely acknowledged yet is that with this plan Amtrak has managed to consolidate all food service into a single car while reducing staffing, ensuring provision of hot meals and allowing for private dining to sleeping car passengers either in room or at the lounge tables.

I'm having a hard time seeing the downside here. Coach passengers remain free to carry-on food and drink (which from some stations is quite good) and to pack it from home if they so choose.

Sleeping car passengers get upgraded linens (in their rooms as opposed to just at the table when they dine), in room dining (or a reemphasis on its provision), hot meals (restored from box meals) , private dining in the lounge and 24/7 exclusive access to the lounge.

I think Amtrak has done a really good job recognizing they had cut too far in some areas, needed improvements in others and (I think correctly) have reduced coach priveleges which were encroaching on the exclusivity of First Class.

If anything Amtrak has actually restored value to the First Class offerring. Ironically, this actually mirrors historic practice by the railroads which (as I understand it) restricted lounge access to extra care passengers only.

[STrRedWolf]

RedWolf: I should have clarified, I meant something made to order as I’ve seen at airport Chipotles, not a McDonalds or Taco Bell special In other words, something for which I’d spend $11 on a train (meaning $8 in a stationary restaurant.)

Amtrak’s dining options will have a hard time pleasing everyone who rides, but particularly those who ride multiple times per month expecting to have several different meal choices. It’s possible for them to move to a Panera model where they can assemble precooked carbs + protein + greens + toppings + sauce + seasoning and get a surprisingly large variation, and I think that best fulfills the “millennial” dining style the Post claims. (Don’t you love the variations on the “millennials are killing ____” theme?) Otherwise, I don’t know how to get much more variety without stocking many different kinds of meals, then having to guess which ones will get sold out.

Ugh... yeah, the "throw everything into a bowl" trend has gotten full swing, with Nalley Fresh, pokè bowls, Korean rice bowls, whatnot within walking distance of my workplace in Baltimore. It's been a mixed bag (Nalley Fresh stopped doing breakfast last year), and the local pokè bowl offering had changed hands already. My local Panera Bread doesn't have that style of offering, though.

I can see expanding the cafè out to do it, as well as have storage for pre-made heat-and-eat meals. I can only see it for overnight and over-4-hour day trips, though. I wish I had a pre-made on the Pennsylvanian this year... ugh, the delays...

Hmmm... Capitol Limited, Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Crescent, Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor. These are over-nighters. Three trains are stretching it, though: The Cardinal, The Crescent and the Silver Meteor. These are over 24 hours in travel time.

Out of the rest with a diner:

• Auto Train is overnight, but it's a captive audience (non-stop service). It's a toss-up here.
• Cali Zephyr, Coast Starlight are also overnight... and over 24 hours in travel time.
• Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited all are two-night routes and definitely needs it's diner. (I'm not sure of the Texas Eagle idles and attaches or makes everyone transfer).

[Backshophoss]

Eagle gives the Sunset Ltd a coach and Sleeper at San Antonio,Eagle is Cross Country Cafe to/from Chicago.

[Greg Moore]

Something that we have barely acknowledged yet is that with this plan Amtrak has managed to consolidate all food service into a single car while reducing staffing, ensuring provision of hot meals and allowing for private dining to sleeping car passengers either in room or at the lounge tables.

I'm having a hard time seeing the downside here. Coach passengers remain free to carry-on food and drink (which from some stations is quite good) and to pack it from home if they so choose.

Sleeping car passengers get upgraded linens (in their rooms as opposed to just at the table when they dine), in room dining (or a reemphasis on its provision), hot meals (restored from box meals) , private dining in the lounge and 24/7 exclusive access to the lounge.

I think Amtrak has done a really good job recognizing they had cut too far in some areas, needed improvements in others and (I think correctly) have reduced coach priveleges which were encroaching on the exclusivity of First Class.

If anything Amtrak has actually restored value to the First Class offerring. Ironically, this actually mirrors historic practice by the railroads which (as I understand it) restricted lounge access to extra care passengers only.

I can tell you a HUGE downside. A coach passenger is basically told, "Screw you, suffer with crappy cafe car food." This to me is a large turn-off and as I've stated a few times, has and will continue to change my travel plans. Believe it or not, coach passengers DID enjoy the dinner (when they knew about it, I found many were didn't and were disappointed they hadn't known before I told them.)

Also, and perhaps I am showing my age, but a huge part of the dining experience for me has been the chance to socialize. The ability to eat in your room is not knew. That's always been available.
As for 24/7 access to the lounge? What advantage is that? They've already had access to the cafe car. So basically now it's " you can sit at this table, or that table." BFD.

So all around, we're stuck with basically reheated meals that we can eat in our rooms (which we could always do) or eat in a "lounge car" that's basically an overly fancy cafe car.

So what's the advantage again?

[mtuandrew]

The mandate is that Amtrak reduce F&B costs to zero, correct? (Which dovetails with what Mr. O’Keefe described about “Non-Appropriated Funds” for government-run food operations.) And further, that these sleeper car box lunches, attendant’s salary, and Viewdiner operating costs are approximately revenue-neutral to the proportion of F&B money taken from each sleeper ticket?

If so, that means Amtrak projects the various cafe cars will make a surplus in 2020 and beyond, enough to cover the loss sustained by the Auto Train’s and the western LD diners. I haven’t heard anyone mention changes for them, aside from the prices continually creeping upward. I’m not sure anyone here has discussed that.

[JoeG]

We are witnessing another episode of Amtrak's long decline. Do the first class passengers on Eastern trains get to sit in their exclusive lounge and give orders to a waiter who delivers their food to their table? Or does the so-called first class passenger have to get his own food and bring it to the lounge?
One thing is that their food and service keeps declining, so the diner is less and less an enjoyable, social experience. I am by no means an extrovert, but that meant that the experience of chatting with strangers over a good meal was rare in my life, and something that enlivened a train trip.

I have noticed that frozen, precooked meals available in supermarkets are much better than they used to be. Also, chains such as Applebees use mostly pre-made food and end up producing tasty, though not fancy meals. So Amtrak could provide a nice dining experience with smaller kitchen staff than previously required.

To me, Amtrak's food policies are just another attempt to discourage patronage of LD trains.
If food service is required to break even, I'm sure that can be accomplished by the same creative minds that say the NEC is profitable.

[gokeefe]

Greg, here's the problem. Has Amtrak been underselling their own premium product by allowing such egalitarian rules on board? I think the answer is very likely yes.

They simply can't afford to do it. With regards to shared dining I have indeed experienced it but because I was traveling with my spouse I would have preferred private dining. I would note that we used the diner as coach passengers but that access to the diner was a "treat" not a "must". We would have been fine without it.

Amtrak is making a generational argument that is culturally convenient and perhaps the most polite way to handle the situation. I think it works but perhaps the real underlying issue is broader than just differences between age groups. Amtrak may well know this but preferred not to state it as such.

[Rockingham Racer]

Eagle gives the Sunset Ltd a coach and Sleeper at San Antonio,Eagle is Cross Country Cafe to/from Chicago.

I had breakfast and lunch in the Cross Country Cafe north of San Antonio a few weeks ago. I thought the bacon and eggs, and the Angus burger were just as acceptable as what one would get in a Superliner dining car.

[Tadman]

A concept worth exploring here: a lot of us lament the experience of the diner. But the recent narrative about millenials not liking community dining is half-true. People of any age these days are visibly shocked when they find they have to share a table in the diner. I see it all the time. Perhaps we misunderstand the average train passenger does not care or even like the diner and would actually prefer to be served at-seat so they can eat in semi-private.

I enjoy the community thing mostly, but sometimes you get a real interesting character and suffer through it. I wouldn't dislike being served a meal in my cabin.

[Greg Moore]

A concept worth exploring here: a lot of us lament the experience of the diner. But the recent narrative about millenials not liking community dining is half-true. People of any age these days are visibly shocked when they find they have to share a table in the diner. I see it all the time. Perhaps we misunderstand the average train passenger does not care or even like the diner and would actually prefer to be served at-seat so they can eat in semi-private.

I enjoy the community thing mostly, but sometimes you get a real interesting character and suffer through it. I wouldn't dislike being served a meal in my cabin.

But the point is, that option always existed, albeit it some attendants were more willing to provide it than others.

There's another potential issue with eating in a roomette/room (though as I understand it, some of the new changes will solve this).
The table SUCKS. The weird "edge" makes it impossible to put stuff flat on it if it's too wide. And with 2 people trying to eat dinner, it could be quite crowded.
And for a family of four, it's actually nice to have a nice sit down meal in the diner. Yes, the option to have that apparently still exists, but the impression I get is it'll be more like a McDonald's experience than an Applebee's experience in terms of service.

And I still think keeping coach passengers out is sort of a mistake.
We'll see.

I should say, despite all my kvetching, the recent changes do seem to be an improvement over the original plans they put in place on the LSL and CL.
So Amtrak apparently IS taking some input.

[gokeefe]

I should say, despite all my kvetching, the recent changes do seem to be an improvement over the original plans they put in place on the LSL and CL.
So Amtrak apparently IS taking some input.

It would seem so and I was admittedly surprised by it. I figured Anderson would dig in on the box meals and call it a day.

The menus for the Western transcontinental services remain quite attractive. I was impressed by the fact that they appear unchanged (at worst).

It would be interesting to hear from others who are more familiar with that menu.