Status of M420TR # 27

[The Man]

The RHSX mark is the CNY Chapter mark. #27 will be displaying that mark at all times. As a note, 27 was built with slope steps like a GP unit and the same trucks as the M-420W. We think the trucks and steps are from a LIRR C-420 that was cut up. And if you look close you will see that they notched the fuel tank at all four corners for the brake rigging. As for the pump covers. We have them in stock. The hard part is that ALL the blue cards have come up missing. Next week 27 will be placed in the shop until she is running.

JJH

[Brian 57]

Boy, am I glad I found this forum! I work at the Griffiss Industrial Park in Rome and have been wondering what the heck #27 was. I had some pretty weird theories. I have to confess that my initial reaction to reading these posts was "You mean they made it look like that on purpose?"

[pablo]

Was there ever a total of how many of these are left in either form?

Dave Becker

[The Man]

The R&S 26 and 27 are alive and well. Only two M-420-TR's built in this line. Both demo's for MLW and sold to R&S then 27 to the CNY Loco and Trains co. 26 sold to a shortline in Canada. As for the Mexican unit's I have no idea of the stats. John may know. What I find interesting is that the TR's never caught on as they are (we hope) good yard goat/road unit's. I mean these could have been good unit's for roads like IHB, BRC, NY Dock, As well as port roads. At home I have a box of match books from ALCO for the C-415 "1500 hp with a view" Yet they came up with 2000 hp with a view that looks better than a C-415. If I had a railroad that did lot's of switching I would want two C-415's and two M-420-TR's.

JJH-

[pablo]

I agree that the 420TR's were ideal units, and I can further add that the vibration problems that the 415's are reported to have (I've read in many places, but never even seen one up close in action, just "sleeping", as my 5 year old likes to tell me) aren't a problem with the 420's, as they don't have the 8-cyl 251, hence, no vibrations issues.

How about those south of the border: John?

Dave Becker

[oibu]

I think if you look at EMD/GMD sales figures for switchers (Sw1500, MP15, etc.) in the timeframe that the M420TR was available, you'll see why so few were built.

Not many EMD switchers were built then either. And in Canada, GMD switcher production in the 70s was pretty close to 0, if not in fact 0.

Simply put, nobody wanted end-cab switchers or light road switchers. Or at least, evrybody still had existing fleets of end-cab units; and recent acquisitons of "big' power were freeing up massive numbers of Geeps, RS3s, R18s, etc. for yard and local duty. So who would buy an M420TR (or SW1500 or MP15), when they had a few hundred 1st-gen. Geeps or Alcos to bump into yard/local duty thanks to all the new SD45s/SD40s/M630/636s etc. that had been built in the late 60s-early 70s. Really nodboy has done well trying to sell small units in 40+ years, because there is always "something" than can be rebuilt or "bumped" into yard/local service.

Also keep in mind the 70s and 80s saw branchline abandonments on a massice scale. so the need for a "light road switcher" was in majpr decline.

[SOU2645]

[
How about those south of the border: John?

Dave Becker[/quote]

All FCP M420TR Type 2's are extinct. All were scrapped as FNM units after privatization took place.

larry

[Alcoman]

I think if you look at EMD/GMD sales figures for switchers (Sw1500, MP15, etc.) in the timeframe that the M420TR was available, you'll see why so few were built.

Not many EMD switchers were built then either. And in Canada, GMD switcher production in the 70s was pretty close to 0, if not in fact 0.

Simply put, nobody wanted end-cab switchers or light road switchers. Or at least, evrybody still had existing fleets of end-cab units; and recent acquisitons of "big' power were freeing up massive numbers of Geeps, RS3s, R18s, etc. for yard and local duty. So who would buy an M420TR (or SW1500 or MP15), when they had a few hundred 1st-gen. Geeps or Alcos to bump into yard/local duty thanks to all the new SD45s/SD40s/M630/636s etc. that had been built in the late 60s-early 70s. Really nodboy has done well trying to sell small units in 40+ years, because there is always "something" than can be rebuilt or "bumped" into yard/local service.

Also keep in mind the 70s and 80s saw branchline abandonments on a massice scale. so the need for a "light road switcher" was in majpr decline.

How Ironic that now, there is a need for med horsepower endcab switchers. With many older ones wearing out, there is no suitable replacements available. Forget about Railpower and the like. Those are light duty switchers which are proving to be unable to handle heavy trains.
Someone (FM/Alco) should consider building a M420TR like replacement for the future needs of freight switching.

[N. Todd]

Someone (FM/Alco) should consider building a M420TR like replacement

FM and Alco have been out of locomotive production for decades...
I think most potential customers would find a conventional M420 of more use, considering the prices were about the same(?) and parts were somewhat standardized.
And yes, why buy new switchers when you can convert anything...looks what SP did, SD38-2s and Century's as hump power.

[The Man]

N. Todd. The locomotive market has gone off the scale. The new deal is, does it have wheels? Does it have a block that is one chunk? Main and motors? If yes to all of these we will take it! I just saw a GP-10 with a bad main gen and shot wheels go for 90K at auction. This makes some of the older power worth more. Plus most switching roads would rather have end cabs. This is a known fact since SW's have held value for the past 20 years. CR would sell you a SW-8m for 85K in 95. And the SW has been out of production for 40 years?

JJH-

[Alcoman]

The Stats for the M420TR is as follows:
50' long
12-251 rated @ 2000hp
2400 gal fuel tank
250 gal water tank
Lube oil: 160 gal
Sand capacity: 27 cu feet
B-B truck (Hi-Adhesion type) of 9'-4" wheelbase with rubber cushioning blocks)
Made by Dofasco in Canada
Gear Ratio: 74:18
MU: Yes
Weight: 240,000 lbs
TE: 60,400 @ 25% (starting)
TE-Continuous: 68,000 lbs @ 10mph
Alternator: GE GY27P
Traction Motors: GE 752PC6 (4)
Wheels: 40"
Brakes: 26LUM
Dynamic Brakes: Yes
Max speed: 65mph
Cab Width: 10'-0"
Hight to top of cab: 15'-02"
Min turning rad: 30'


Info via Extra 2200 South Issue # 33 and Centennial Remberence by R Steinbrenner.

[The Man]

27 nolonger has the hi-ad trucks. And the brake system has been changed and is 26L. And keep in mind the unit was changed by the R&S to meet there specs. What John has is the as built stats. the 251 is the stock 251E I belive and the main gen is a 581 witch is nice for the ADCR as the 8223 and the 4243 all have the 581 main as well. Some of the other power they are looking into also has the 581 main. This will mean we will only have to stock one main gen for all the alco's. I just wish that had been the plan.

JJH-

[traingeek8223]

Other power? Can you elaborate or is it a secret?

[The Man]

All I can say is that ADCR is power short and is working with other groups to bring more units in over time. I don't work for the ADCR but I did make the deal on the 27 and I am involved with the owners of the 8223. I have been dealing with the GM and shop guy's to find the best unit's for the ADCR line. See the Adirondack has some issues to overcome when looking for motive power. One thing that has held them up more than once is the bridges. I was looking into getting a BRC C-424 but since they are 288K lb. they are to heavy for the ADCR. This is the same reason the FL-9's or E-units will not be able to go north of Snow. "DL&W 808" has been to Lyons Falls before and that line can support the E-8 on that side. But north of Snow on the ADCR the bridge issues come up. So this keeps the ADCR looking at the same type of power it has been looking at and that is the same as what it has now. I can tell you that one of the shop guy's would love to have a C-636 but it is to big for the line. So I would not start looking for anything bigger than a stock 425 or less. EMD and ALCO seems to be the way they want keep going as they have the parts on hand to keep them running. When the Utica Train first started up they had two cab unit sets in mind, NYS&W's E-9's and the CNY Chapter FP-7's #637 and 97A. The FP-7's needed to much work and the E-9's would not be able to make it past Snow so the C-420 #2064 and the F-9 #1508 became Utica power in the short term that turned long term. I would love to see a pair of FPA-4's back to back on that line but I don't see it happening anytime soon. For know the only thing that stays the same is that nothing stays the same. Have fun.

JJH-

[RS-3]

There's a nice pair of FPA's just sitting in Gowanda that would be perfect...

RS