What's the deal with train shows these days?

[kjd73170]

Hello all!

Recently because of various situations I for about 2 years did not really attend any model railroad shows. The main reasons for my not making the 100+ mile trips in some cases to shows were the cost of gas (2.75 then, 3.75 now) cost of lodging (yes I can find a $40 a night room, but will I have some sort of skin condition in the morning) the LACK of anything other than high rail being sold (Like every other or every 3rd vendor sold high rail, no offense meant if you're a high rail collector) and the fact that besides a rare few vendors, those not selling high rail were selling new items I can get through my hobby shop and at not that much of a discount. So the appeal of seeing the same vendors (Northeast USA shows) for not getting any "real" bargains, rising travel costs, I called it quits for a bit to let life settle down for a bit... Until Yesterday.

I went to a smaller show and although I did reconnect with some model railroaders I haven't seen in a bit (A very big plus) the same issues persisted. Why can't they just drop the pretenses and call it a "Lionel and O gauge meet with a sprinkling of other stuff there show". Look in the early summer train shows are rare, most vendors have headed to the lake or the beach and will re emerge in September when the shows start again. But for a small "family" show, $5 bucks a head for admission and a high rail almost exclusive show is a bit much. Plus the ONLY operating exhibit/layout was an N-TRACK group (Being an N scale person I was more than okay with this) and the fact that some of these vendors are not selling "Family Friendly" priced items. If you're bringing a 5 year old out to look at the toy trains you may wish to pick up a set with track and a transformer for $75-$100. Row after row of limited edition Lionel/MTH/American Flier/Etc. locomotives @ $500 a set is probably going to sit and have to be packed up at the end of the day. Educated guess on that one.....

There used to be really good late season shows around of vendors looking to deal and move items other than sit on them for the summer. I miss those shows......

My questions to you are this -
1. Am I the only one seeing this trend in shows?
2. Besides an "Exclusively whatever scale" show, have all train shows evolved into high rail heavy shows?
3. Railroadania (not just books) where are these guys at shows? I know there's Timonium MD... But just there?
4. Have you seen the "Curmudgeoning" of many vendors with kids and teens heck even adults?
5. Lionel made 89 quadrillion billion million of that boxcar in 1954. It's not that rare trust me the price guides say so.... Chill out if I as a responsible adult pick it up to look at it. If you don't want people to touch your trains - may I suggest not selling them and put them into a lucite case on your wall with a lock.
6. I understand margins are tight and if you're selling new items you need to make money, But I paid to enter the show, you're not carrying the overhead of a store (sometimes) and at a show bargains are expected. Please don't hit us with MSRP and not be willing to deal. I can hit my hobby shop for free and have them order it for me. Why hit the show if I can talk to my guy and get it all the same?

Sorry for the rant but I think the show thing can be great again with more shops closing or "in danger" this may be the way the hobby is headed. Maybe it's me in belonging to a group at one time that was EXCESSIVELY child and family friendly, but I think attitudes and actions of vendors and collectors alike need to change at these shows.

[umtrr-author]

In my area, train shows have been in a general decline for the last ten to fifteen years, both in quantity and quality.

For me they are now primarily social events, and if I find something interesting at a reasonable price, that's a bonus.

Major causals I can point to, in no particular order:
- Increased price of putting on a show, leading to higher door fees and table fees.
- Pre-order protocols drying up new stock available to sell.
- Cutoff of "non-brick and mortar" dealers (with exception of large internet-based ones) by Horizon and perhaps others.
- eBay and the resulting mentality that because "someone" paid "some price" for "something" once, that is now the "current value."
- Lack of new exhibits, just the same old same old, another year older.

And a new entrant that will start impacting shows when "Train Show Season" starts up again: shorter dealer discounts.

[Backshophoss]

Two local clubs here in NM do "Sell/Swap meet" type shows,along the the local TTOS chapter and Div 6 of the NMRA.
AN annual show is hosted at Expo NM(in May)for collectors of dishes,Emp TT's,Public TT's,etc...
The Belen Model RR Club hosts 3-4 Sell/Swap meets a year,2 of which are considered "Vendor Shows" with local "Home based"
retailers selling items,at the Harvey House in Belen.
Div 6/Rio Grande is holding the regional convention in June 2013.
The TTOS chapter runs 2-3 shows a year,1 in Socorro,the other shows in ABQ,some scale stuff shows up at those shows.
The club I'm with(ASHOME) has done a Sell/Swap earlier this year and may run another in the fall.
While the Famous Shows get all the press coverage,the local shows are under the "radar" but live on"Word of mouth"
You just might find out of local shows in your area!

[Notch-8]

I, too, have noticed these trends. Here in northeastern Ohio, we have about 4-5 major shows each year. Most of them (with the exception of the Berea show) do have a proliferation of high rail items, and these items are almost always in fair to poor condition and are priced very high. It seems to me that a lot of people think, for some reason, that anything made by Lionel before around 1960 is some sort of collector's item, and therefore, worth big bucks no matter what condition it is in or how many were made. I've also noticed that admission prices keep going up every year. There are still some deals to be had, if you look around long enough. Case in point; last year, I found a Kato HO GP35 for $60, when these same locomotives were going for about $90-$100 on E-bay. Other than that, most of these shows are a waste of my time. The Berea show is still worth going to. They have a great selection, and good deals. Good variety in layouts, as well. Although, I haven't been to this show in the last couple of years due to the fact that I travel a lot with my job, I would still recommend it. But, like I said, admission keeps going up. Last I checked, it was around $10, plus you have to pay for parking. All in all, with the internet, e-bay, etc. I can find better deals sitting here at home without having to pay for gas, parking, and admission (and the chance that I won't find anything I want anyway). So, for me, these train shows are no longer worth going to. I think that the internet will probably kill off train shows one day, just the same as it is killing our local hobby shops. It is a sad trend.

[kjd73170]

I'm pretty well connected with the local clubs here, it just seems like lately every show I have been too with the exception to Springfield and Syracuse NY in the fall, Have been really high rail heavy in what was being sold.

I started in trains with 0-27 but now I do N scale and it's been near impossible see a show geared to any scale other than O/O-27.

Besides it's been a real eye opener bringing my 4 year old nephew to shows I have been hitting for years and to see the demeanor of vendors I have been very friendly change drastically....

I find trends like that troubling.

[CNJ999]

KJD - Your observations re today's train shows in general are pretty much on the mark, but it was a process that had been evolving for a good many years before it reached this point, not just a recent change. In fact, the best scale train shows I ever saw were all back in the 1980's and it's been downhill ever since in my opinion.

Way back when most local and even many regional train shows started out as strictly tinplate (Lionel/Flyer/Marx) affairs. In those days tinplate was not highly valued and selling prices were based largely on back and forth bargaining. Scale models (HO & N) crept progressively into the mix during the 70's and through the 80's with most scale items not being regarded as collectibles in any way. Often the tables were manned by some individual who was leaving the hobby and simply selling off all his equipment. Bargains abounded and, in fact, you specifically went to train shows for the bargains. During the 90's the "buying/value guides" changed all that, listing prices that in no way reflected actual show prices at the time in any fashion. I know this because I actually acted as a publisher's advisor on the first Athearn guide book. Once in circulation however, they set the new prices for most dealers.

As the new hobby element in HO arose in the late 1990's it was perceived that there was real money to be made in train shows, so table prices, entry fees and of course the price of the items on sale rose further. At the same time dealers began to consider remaining older merchandize as valued collectibles. I watched 1950's Mantua brass locomotives that had formerly sold for $50 suddenly being offered at a solid $150-$300...even if not running. Mantua's admittedly rather rare pre-war 2-8-0 (a $75 item before the boom) suddenly commanded up to $800!

With time the availability of older second-hand items has decreased as more and larger dealers, some following shows from city to city, moved to selling new items usually offered at retail prices, or even above. Likewise the growing nostalgia value of Lionel made selling their tinplate and new O scale locos and cars an increasingly better domain to profit in. Increasing expense and the rise of the Internet auction houses were forcing out the small mom and pop dealers at shows and during the 2000's those folks wishing to unload items quickly at minimal expense are now mostly on-line, not at shows. Those that do remain are often the ones with the "don't touch and my inflated price is absolutely firm" attitude and are seen to have the very same selection of unsold items show to show.

Now I won't say that in certain local venues values/bargains are not to be found. They sometimes are. But they are increasing rare in my experience, at least here on the East Coast. Probably the best remaining non-local train shows catering largely to scale are the Timonium Great Scale Train Show and the mid winter Springfield, MA show, although neither is nearly as good as years ago in my experience. For that reason over at least the past 5-7 years I've done ALL my purchasing on-line.

CNJ999

[kjd73170]

The club I used to belong to was showing at a show I am kind of familiar with (been there many times) and it was the same vendors, the same items, and just another 6 months later. I guess I should just stick to the larger shows, not take my nephew, and go with the mentality that 95% I can get on ebay/walthers/local hobby shop (great e-store) and lot look for them at the show......

Train shows in the 80's-90's had a good mix, decent bargains, and variety. Newer is definitely not better.

[Otto Vondrak]

6. I understand margins are tight and if you're selling new items you need to make money, But I paid to enter the show, you're not carrying the overhead of a store (sometimes) and at a show bargains are expected. Please don't hit us with MSRP and not be willing to deal. I can hit my hobby shop for free and have them order it for me. Why hit the show if I can talk to my guy and get it all the same?

Whew, that's pretty ballsy: Bargains are "expected?" If you don't like the guy's prices, don't buy from him! Buy from your local hobby shop, I'm sure he'll appreciate it. I hate to tell you, but you're never going to get much of a break on new-in-the-box stuff that's not much off MSRP. The exceptions are the fellows who buy in such quantities that they are able to offer more discounts.

I think you may be disappointed because you are using different definitions for what things are.

Let's look at the difference between a "vendor" and a "dealer."

A "vendor" is any Joe Blow off the street with a table of stuff to sell. He might be trying to sell Lionel Standard Gauge sets for $800 each, he might be trying to sell junked Tycos. He may have an old Athearn "blue box" 40' boxcar with Kadees marked as $11.00. He may also be giving away Plasticville buildings for $1 a piece. In other words, he doesn't do this for a living (if he is, he is doing a horrible job at it). He has merely come to this show to set out a table full of stuff, and he'll see what he can get for it. He may be knowledgeable. He may be a schmuck. He may be a grumpy old guy who doesn't want you touching anything until you've forked over cash for it. In other words, these guys ain't pros. You can't get too mad at them.

A "dealer" is a fellow who will go to several shows throughout the year and have a booth of sizable consequence. He may carry the same kind of stock as your average hobby shop (locomotives, cars, and building kits), or he may just specialize in locomotives, or just freight cars, or just kits. In other words, he is a "dealer" in the same sense you local hobby shop is a "dealer." He buys in bulk and carries a stock from show to show. When you visit his booth at the show, you are visiting his store. He's most likely to carry a few less expensive train sets because he knows he can stock them and sell them at "family" shows.

Guess what? Dealers are not gonna come to every little podunk show in the country. Some guys won't go to a show with less than 5,000 attendance because they know it won't be worth their while! The vendors are carting the same junk from show to show because they have overpriced it and it is junk. That's why you're seeing the same tired crap. Want a good selection of dealers, vendors, and layout displays? You gotta head to the bigger shows.

3. Railroadania (not just books) where are these guys at shows? I know there's Timonium MD... But just there?

You asked about railroadiana. You're not going to find it at most train shows. Railroadiana is a very specialized hobby, and they devote entire shows just to it. Railroadiana ranges from $1.00 timetables to $250 brass locks to $1000 china sets from a dining car. You were complaining that there were no "train sets" to be purchased at a "family" train show... Why would I want to display my $250 brass locks and thousand dollar china to the Sunday afternoon tire-kickers who are looking for their first Thomas set? Now that's not to say you won't see guys show up with lower-end items... Paper like timetables and tickets and stuff like that, maybe lanterns no more than $50 or $75. But the market for that stuff is not at a "family" train show.

4. Have you seen the "Curmudgeoning" of many vendors with kids and teens heck even adults?
5. Lionel made 89 quadrillion billion million of that boxcar in 1954. It's not that rare trust me the price guides say so.... Chill out if I as a responsible adult pick it up to look at it. If you don't want people to touch your trains - may I suggest not selling them and put them into a lucite case on your wall with a lock.

So what? You're gonna run into a grumpy guy at these shows who thinks all his merchandise is plated in gold. So what? Don't buy from him. Probably no one else is, either.

-otto-

[colorado]

I've noticed the change, although some of it, I've changed regions where I live and gone through some dry spells where I didn't go to shows so the changes were more noticable. I've been going to the Denver Area train shows in November now for a few years and can also say I have seen.......

1. The same vendors and dealers time after time with mostly the same stuff. Lots of scale, not too much 3rd rail but the small vendors selling used stuff seems to return show after show with me seeing the same items for years. Not a complaint just an observation.

2. Lots of dealers but the stock seems good and the prices fair. Yes I live in the land of Caboose Hobbies but since I model the EL and LV I grew up wiith and they stock very little nn Western n gauge, Wig-Wag's table is always a place I spent my fair share of cash.

3. Same layouts every show, I haven't much bothered to go into the "layout room"tion of the show anymore as it is the same modular layouts I have seen for a long time. Again not a complaint, I don't expect them to build new layouts every year just to satisfy me, just, been there done that.

4. Almost no railroadania. I don't collect it but it is interesting to see, just noticing the change over the years. The Denver show does sell books and new merchandise and art that is nice but no old railroadania. I know times change but I remember the old WNYRHS shows in the eighties having a decent amount of Railroadania at vendor tables then

I've almost lost interest in attending and since recently deciding on not building a layout and selling off my n gauge collection to support the racing hobby (If interested, email me at [email protected] for an inventory list) was going to stop going but I'll still probably stop in every November anyway just for the pre winter/trains/holiday thing for my fix and just look around. Too many memories I guess of the old train displays at the BIG E bank in downtown Buffalo at the holidays and visits to Spoonley the trainman with my grandfather before christmas long ago.

[colorado]

Make that......

[email protected]

I will be away for the holiday weekend so I won't be checking email until at least Tuesday 9/4 if you want an inventory of available stuff.

[Otto Vondrak]

I've noticed the change, although some of it, I've changed regions where I live and gone through some dry spells where I didn't go to shows so the changes were more noticable...

...I've almost lost interest in attending and since recently deciding on not building a layout and selling off my n gauge collection to support the racing hobby.

So wait a second. You've decided to get out of the model railroad hobby because you'd rather focus on another interest of yours... And you blame your lack of interest in going to train shows on the "quality" of your local shows?

Also, I'm not sure if I spelled it out before, but *most* local train shows are like what you describe. If a show has 100 tables or less, it's probably put on by a small group who is trying to raise money (like a club or a church or a local organization), and they put just enough effort into the show to keep it going year after year. Small shows do not attract what you consider to be "quality" vendors or dealers. I tried to explain the difference between a "vendor" and a "dealer." Unless the show is 200 or 400 tables, you're less likely to see a good mix of dealers and vendors. And yes, smaller shows attract "the same layouts year after year" because they are available, and they know what they're getting into. Also, fire codes limit the number of tables and the number of layouts due to required aisle widths and so on. That's why small shows stay small.

If you're disappointed by small shows... Stop going to small shows! The large regional shows are going to have much more of what you're looking for, because that is what they are designed to do. That's not to say you're not going to find the grumpy vendor trying to tell you his "precious" Tycos for inflated prices, those guys show up EVERYWHERE. In short, larger shows attract a better quality of vendor and dealer, and often better and larger display layouts. This is because the larger shows attract a larger audience, which means the vendors and dealers know they are more likely to make sales to make traveling to the show worthwhile.

Does this mean you should totally ignore your local small shows? No. Support your small shows where you can. Even if it's just to put $5 into the coffers of the local sponsoring organization so you can talk to your old friends inside. Sometimes if a small show is popular enough, it grows into a big show...

If you're going to go into every train show expecting rows and rows of "bargains" (50% off list is a fantasy, not a bargain) just waiting for you to snap them up, you will be disappointed every time. Go into a show with no expectations, and you'll be surprised what you'll find by the end of the day.

-otto-

[Otto Vondrak]

Now, ask me how I know.

My club started a small show that grew into one of the largest shows in our area. We went through all the growing pains of starting a show and growing the audience.

-otto-

[Sir Ray]

OK, slightly off-topic, but what if your area doesn't seem to support train shows (meaning swap meet/flea market style). The area I speak of is Long Island, NY, with a population base in the millions so it's not underpopulated. That said, the train shows I find listed are layout displays and the like, which while great is not what I am looking for - train show/swap meets. Greenberg use to run shows occasionally at Hofstra (actually, not sure when they were last at Hofstra, 2004?, but on their site they are not listed as coming here). Listings on-line for such train show/swaps for Long Island seem worthless and weak - I could readily find only one, the "Northern Spur Train" for early next year.
What gives? Well, most likely me looking at the wrong on-line resources for the wrong type of event, but still why does Long Island seem like a black hole of train shows?
(Searching on this topic on-line, you'll find a thread posted by 'atlantic1967' on this very topic - Long Island train shows & swap meets - from last year, although he does include module layout open-houses too - unfortunately there were no responses to that thread)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I think the problem is two fold.

One, enough money from that last pair of jeans and Lexus we bought was redistributed to east asia that we do not have the money circljng around OUR middle class anymore so model trains seem expensive.

Two, every day on ebay and maybe craigslist I can offer my excess stuff for sale to a world wide audience so I do not need to wait for a train or car show.

Well, maybe three, most of us now have cable and cell bills removing $100 or so a month from our railroad hobbies.

[Desertdweller]

I agree that the quality of train shows has declined since the 1990's.

Today I attended the model train show in North Platte that is held as part of Railfest. This show used to be held in a livestock arena.
Not very clean, but a lot of room for a lot of layouts and vendors. Some of the stuff sold was second-hand, but in good condition and very usable. I bought a number of N-scale items there.

For the past few years, this show has been held in the National Guard Armory. Clean, just across the street from Cody Park where most of the festival was being held.

The armory is very clean, but is really too small for this. Only a few layouts, nothing in N. Two major vendors. Last year I bought a 3-pack of Micro-Trains Pullmans, today I bought a single Micro-Trains RPO. Some N-scale starter train sets, some freight cars, hardly any N-scale passenger cars. The dealer I bought the RPO from had it and a three-car set of circus train passenger cars. That was it. The other dealer had a D&RGW Pullman and an AT&SF passenger car. Dealer one had a few N-scale truck tractors. Prices looked to me to be list or nearly so. Admission charge was $3.

As part of an annual festival, this was worth going to. As a model railroad shopping trip, it was a bust.

Les