Brightline West (XpressWest, DesertXpress) Las Vegas - Victorville - Rancho Cucamanga - LA Proposal

[Backshophoss]

A FAILED BBD experiment based on an Acela I set of equipment,tested at Pueblo and with NO Sales,scrapped by BBD

[mtuandrew]

Mr. Nasadowski: also the NYS government!

Moderator Note: But yes, no more Turbo-anythings in this thread, unless Brightline inks a deal on a jet-powered train. Same with Acela I reuse, don’t bother speculating on them here unless you want your post redacted or deleted.

[gokeefe]

Am I reading into it too much, or is Brightline/XpressWest signaling that they'll be using the same Siemens Viaggio Brightline trainsets? And if so, they could access the first mile/last mile on Class I rails? (Meaning, LAX is now entirely a possibility on UP or BNSF rails?)

Very hard to imagine they would switch vendors and use different equipment. I didn't realize XpressWest was considering something other than conventional FRA compliant trainsets.

[electricron]

Am I reading into it too much, or is Brightline/XpressWest signaling that they'll be using the same Siemens Viaggio Brightline trainsets? And if so, they could access the first mile/last mile on Class I rails? (Meaning, LAX is now entirely a possibility on UP or BNSF rails?)

Very hard to imagine they would switch vendors and use different equipment. I didn't realize XpressWest was considering something other than conventional FRA compliant trainsets.

XpressWest was suggesting using proven 150 mph (240 kph) EMU train sets.
Here's a listing of "proven" EMU train sets capable of 155 mph (250 kph), but not over that speed

CRH1 (max speed 155 mph) based upon
Bombardier's Regina (max speed 120 mph)
Swedish proposed (155 mph max speed) modified Regina was tested at 180 mph.
CRH2 (max speed 155 mph) built by Kawasaki
CRH5 (max speed 155 mph based on Alstom Pendolino
CAF/Alstom Alvia Class 120 or Class 121 for RENFE (max speed 155 mph)
Talgo/Alstom Alvia Class 130 (Talgo 250) (max speed 155 mph)
CAF/Alstom Avant Class 104 or 114 Pendolino (max speed 155 mph)
Siemens/Bombardier ICE 4 (max speed 155 mph)
Stadler EC-250 (max speed 155 mph)

None of them meet Full or Alternate FRA compliance, therefore none of them could share tracks with other freight trains needed for Palmdale to Los Angeles or Victorville to Los Angeles. They can only run on dedicated tracks just for them, like Victorville to Las Vegas.

Amtrak's new Avelia Liberty train sets from Alstom are Pendolino based, but could have a max speed of 217 mph (350 kph) if the NEC corridor allowed it. They will meet FRA compliance, although I'm not postivie Fully or Alternately. XpressWest has always limited its max speed to 150 mph to reduce costs, and had therefore limited their choice for EMUs for the same reason.
I suppose Alstom, Bombardier, Siemens, or Stadler could adapt their existing designs to meet FRA compliance, but then their EMU trainsets designs wouldn't be "proven" - a design without risk.

There are other EMU train sets that cost more that go faster, and other train sets that cost less and go slower. Brightline's take over of XpressWest could mean a change in operations, and a change in the desired max speed of these trains. Substituting diesel locomotive power for EMU operations would require a reworking of the already finished and approved FEIS by both the FRA and EPA. That would increase noise and vibrations along the corridor some, and would have to be addressed by an amendment to the FEIS. That adds risk to the project, risk I believe would be too much for a privately funded project. It would be safer to keep to the existing plans of the already approved FEIS.

[electricron]

Looks like I was wrong about using slower trains. Per
https://urbanize.la/post/new-owner-brea ... -rail-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“The Los Angeles Times reports that Brightline is seeking to reduce construction costs beyond the $7-billion price tag that has previously been attached to XpressWest - already relatively low for a high-speed rail system. This could mean using diesel locomotives and opting for taking trains up and down steep grade changes rather than routing tracks through more costly tunnels. The Times also reports that the end-to-end trip for XpressWest is estimated at two hours, with an average speed of 92 miles-per-hour.”

Brightline is proposing diesel powered trains averaging only 92 mph between Victorville and Las Vegas.
Math = 185 miles / 92 mph = ~ 2 hours
Note; ExpressWest was proposing 90 minutes elapse time averaging 125 mph.

While it should be easier to get FRA compliant trains the last 80 miles into downtown Los Angeles from Victorville, it doesn’t mean they will. Who knows what UP or BNSF will charge for access, or how fast the Brightline trains will go on them.
FYI; Amtrak schedules ~ 1 hour and 30 minutes between downtown Los Angeles and Ontario, and Metrolink also schedules ~1 hourand 30 minutes between downtown Los Angeles and Palmdale. There is still 30-40 mile gaps to get from them to Victorville to account for. Abritary adding 30 minutes, the total elapse time between LA and LV would be 4 hours by train - at best. Easily twice the elapse time XpressWestWest was proposing with a Victorville to Palmdale link onto CHSR route into LA.
With longer elapse times, will it be competitive with flying, only the future knows the results? Obviously Brightline folks believe it will be using the slightly slower trains. How much cheaper construction will be is interesting to find outs far as I am concerned.

[Ridgefielder]

There are other EMU train sets that cost more that go faster, and other train sets that cost less and go slower. Brightline's take over of XpressWest could mean a change in operations, and a change in the desired max speed of these trains. Substituting diesel locomotive power for EMU operations would require a reworking of the already finished and approved FEIS by both the FRA and EPA. That would increase noise and vibrations along the corridor some, and would have to be addressed by an amendment to the FEIS. That adds risk to the project, risk I believe would be too much for a privately funded project. It would be safer to keep to the existing plans of the already approved FEIS.

Are noise and vibration really an issue for a railroad running down the median of an interstate through the middle of the Mojave Desert? This is one of the most absolutely empty corners of the Lower 48. There's a reason the military uses the area for live-fire training and aircraft testing.

With regard to equipment: if the Brightline folks are committed to electric instead of diesel, seems to me they'd most likely just use the same Siemens-built rolling stock they're using right now but with ACS-64s up front instead of SCB-40s. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[Arlington]

Going 125 mph Diesel to give themselves
1) Fast Enough (92mph average) to beat car and bus
2) proven, common fleet (low technical risk)
3) Faster, cheaper construction
4) the option to go to Palmdale and LAUS
Is essentially the same strategy that is already playing out well in FEC-and-extensions territory.

[gokeefe]

Completely agreed with the above. Those figures sound exactly like what their current equipment from Florida could do on existing tracks.

Good for them if they make this work.

[Arlington]

92mph / 2hours is probably good enough if they have frequent-enough trains--in Brightline Florida service is essentially hourly during "waking hours" or 16 r/ts a day.

Greyhound is 12 trips a day from LAUS and 5 ~ 6 hours a trip.

Brightline would probably have at least hourly all day, with extras on the half-hour for after-work "getaway" and probably a dribble of every 2 hours overnight (Vegas departures at 2a, 4a, and 6a that'd could be slow and single-tracked and still have you "back at your desk" )

Then also consider how well Amtrak Virginia works: the "non-NEC" trains just have to do "a little better than driving" when delivering folks to the threshold of the NEC (which then does its ~125 to NYC). If they negotiate a LAUS-to-Victorville rail connection, it doesn't have to be particularly fast, it just has to beat driving from LA to Victorville.

[EDIT: XW had assumed frequencies of every 20 to 30 minutes throughout the day for its 150mph EMU service. Assuming that a 125mph service has fewer customers, they'd probably drop back to a plain old 30 minutes. http://www.nvhsra.com/wp-content/upload ... Attach.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]

[Ridgefielder]

Few thoughts:

-The only place where Brightline would absolutely *need* to cooperate with UP and/or BNSF is through the Cajon itself between Hesperia and San Bernardino. Once the line is over the pass they could easily hop back onto the I-15 alignment down toward Ontario.

-Even if they don't and it's a ~4hr journey from downtown LA to downtown Vegas... well, there are a whole lot of people who live in the ~50 miles between LAUPT and San Bernardino. Probably more than 1mm in the towns on the direct line of I-10 alone.

-Willing to bet that at least some services-- Friday afternoon departures from LA, say-- would be marketed as "start your party on the way to the party!" A four hour train ride becomes a lot more tolerable if they're passing you cocktails all the way across the Mojave.

[mtuandrew]

Those 38 acres could hold a lot of hotel rooms and entertainment establishments too, like a 10:1 version of MiamiCentral. Brightline has to have considered the economics of ticket packages that match or undercut the cost of driving + hotel.

Also, there ought to be enormous amounts of land in Victorville for a hotel and parking, if Brightline decides it’s a good investment.

[Rockingham Racer]

Going over Cajon Pass is non-starter without building more infrastructure. Especially if the plan is for hourly service.

[Arlington]

Going over Cajon Pass is non-starter without building more infrastructure. Especially if the plan is for hourly service.

The core service pattern has the feel of every 30 minutes @ Victorville (for the park-and-go traveler).

Beyond that, if we're crazy-speculating about what's further possible with diesels, I think we should be picturing something like
- a PPP to extend service to Palmdale (and that'd keep the 30 min frequency) (and still no reliance on another host railroad)

- MAYBE something like 1 to 4 round trips over an existing route extended to LAUS (like an 8am, 5pm, 9pm in each direction) that would involve finding a host railroad.
- The goal of the 8am and 5pm is "we only have to beat the traffic in order for a train to be 'higher speed'"
- The goal of the late train is to go when riding is much preferred to a tiring/sleepy drive

[bretton88]

There are other EMU train sets that cost more that go faster, and other train sets that cost less and go slower. Brightline's take over of XpressWest could mean a change in operations, and a change in the desired max speed of these trains. Substituting diesel locomotive power for EMU operations would require a reworking of the already finished and approved FEIS by both the FRA and EPA. That would increase noise and vibrations along the corridor some, and would have to be addressed by an amendment to the FEIS. That adds risk to the project, risk I believe would be too much for a privately funded project. It would be safer to keep to the existing plans of the already approved FEIS.

Are noise and vibration really an issue for a railroad running down the median of an interstate through the middle of the Mojave Desert? This is one of the most absolutely empty corners of the Lower 48. There's a reason the military uses the area for live-fire training and aircraft testing.

With regard to equipment: if the Brightline folks are committed to electric instead of diesel, seems to me they'd most likely just use the same Siemens-built rolling stock they're using right now but with ACS-64s up front instead of SCB-40s. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Unfortunately while everything you say is correct about it really not mattering in that area, the regulations would require some reworking of the EIS for a switch to diesel and probably an amended ROD from the FRA. If they are doing any alignment changes, they might have to redo the entire thing. With the timeline Brightline is proposing, they either think the changes can be done quickly (perhaps but it is government we are dealing with) or they found a way to significantly reduce the costs without changing the actual design. Would Brightline consider doing dual-mode trains? Electric on their I-15 alignment and diesel on the access to LA? While it probably wouldn't be the cheapest engines in the world, I'm sure a manufacturer could build a FRA compliant dual mode train.

[mtuandrew]

Beyond that, if we're crazy-speculating about what's further possible with diesels, I think we should be picturing something like
- a PPP to extend service to Palmdale (and that'd keep the 30 min frequency) (and still no reliance on another host railroad)
- MAYBE something like 1 to 4 round trips over an existing route extended to LAUS (like an 8am, 5pm, 9pm in each direction) that would involve finding a host railroad.
- The goal of the 8am and 5pm is "we only have to beat the traffic in order for a train to be 'higher speed'"
- The goal of the late train is to go when riding is much preferred to a tiring/sleepy drive

I was thinking the same thing about Palmdale. Even though it’s the long way around, it stands to be a pretty large intermediate market on the way to/from Las Vegas. XpressWest can always use a direct Victorville - LAUS alignment when one becomes available.