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  • Trainmaster Question

  • General discussion about working in the railroad industry. Industry employers are welcome to post openings here.
General discussion about working in the railroad industry. Industry employers are welcome to post openings here.

Moderator: thebigc

 #366967  by Newguy
 
I am wanting to start a career for BNSF as a Conductor and hopefully move into management someday. I want to know why I hear so much negative feedback about Trainmasters? Of course, management and the employees always have their differences of opinion but I hear that Trainmasters are hated by the Conductors/Engineers.

Also, could someone give me an idea of what a work week is like as a Trainmaster. ie. tasks, hours... And is there room for advancement after getting this position?

Thanks in advance,

 #367111  by paddy78
 
There is a lot of reasons why being TM sucks and there is just as many reasons why most guys are not that fond of TM's. It goes beyond the union vs. management thing in many cases; a lot of it has to do with the way the jobs set up and people in them react. The expectations are brutal and guys in management typically either hunker down, keep a low profile, and do the best they can or they drink the Kool Aide and go gung ho after the union folks, get their numbers up, and live for the bonus.

Being a TM can either be an exercise in boredom in its most brutal form or be the most stressful, jaw clenching exercise in personal abuse that you can imagine.

The fun stuff....

The tasks depend on the terminal. Typically you work in a division point terminal which can involve a lot of switching. In those cases you do a lot of short term planning in making up trains, balancing the yard, and batting them out. The yardmasters do the bulk of the work and they are typically damn good at it so you only need to get involved if something gets screwed up with the plan (which is normal). If you have any locals you might spend some time working with them, talking to customers, yelling at TMs downline to send you cars that this customer needs or that one wants, and checking with the roundhouse to see how you are doing on power. Sometimes you work with the dispatchers to solve traffic issues, or sometimes you work with the yard jobs to solve switching problems. Smetimes there is not much to do so you can BS with the guys in the crew rooms, grab some lunch, or run home to catch some time with the family. It just depends on what kind of terminal you are in.

Ok, that's its for the fun stuff.

Your biggest job as a TM is operational testing. This is where the term "weed weasel" applies. Basically it will be your job to go tell other people how to do their job...even if you dont know how to do their job. This takes a lot of practice to get any good at and you have to have the right personality for it or your crews will hate you forever. You go out and set up tests like knocking a signal down with a shunt, turning a pot signal dark, or throwing a fusee in front of a oncoming train. Be sure to hide in the weeds or they will see you. You make sure they stop, then climb on board, check their papers, write up a ticket (just like a cop) and send them on their way. There are litterally hundreds of different things you can test.

The tricky part comes into play when someone does something wrong. If you are cool about it and so are they, no problem. That is not usually the case and a argument typically breaks out that results in a good twenty minutes of rule digging. the real tricky part comes into play when someone did something techincially wrong, but not wrong enough to warrant something on their record. hate to say it, but wrong to one guy is not the same as wrong to another, and that is where TM's get bad names becasue it is hard to find two who agree. And even worse, it is really hard to find superintendents who agree. So the book is supposed to be black and white, but it is all kinds of gray. And dont forget that the superintendent is watching your record, and if all the other TMs fail 10 guys and you fail 2, you are a slacker and it is time to put you on the night shift for a while. nevermind that you let this guy off for that and that guy off for this, its not on paper so it didnt happen.

So that is one of the not-so-fun parts of being a TM. Then there is awlays those few guys who will go out of their way to give you a a hard time. No water on the unit, clogged toilet, machine is out of earplugs, blah blah blah. Sometimes it is legit and sometimes it isnt.

Then there is the countless hours of driving crews around becasue the van company hired five guys right out of CJC and none of them managed to show up for work today. Hmmm....guess you pick up the slack there too.

Other not so fun parts include 80+ hour work weeks. Constant finger-pointing with upline and downline terminals on service issues, and abusive conference calls with upper managers who are proud to have been divorced three times and have moved 18 times in a 20 year career.

But there is plenty of room for advancement if you are willing to sacrifice your family for it. A lot of TMs dont go any further because it gets really serious once you hit the next level, meaning you will have to relocate A LOT. Once you hit the corporate radar they will send you all over the system and back to see to it that you see the entire railraod. And you dont have a chocie in where or when you go, you go or you're done.

There you go man.

I was a TM for 15 months in a busy termnial; at first I thought it was the best thing that could ever happen to me, but by the end I was so miserable that I couldnt believe I was dumb enough to take the job. Lot of that was personal stuff and my personality was just not a good fit for the job. If you are a nice guy and try to do right, you can do it, but not without getting burned a lot. It will happen. It was really odd how well all the guys started treating me once I told them I was outta there, a lot of them were good guys but the job kept driving a wedge between us that only went away once they knew I was out of the game. Its just the way it the job is set up, and it just doesnt change.

Lots of the railroads are trying to change that, but I dont see it working. I hired out with the honey in my ear that my attitude was going to make the difference and that the old ways would die off....its baloney. Some of the managers that I hired out with bought hook, line, and sinker into the old way of doing things.....yell, scream, intimidate, play the tough guy act, and it works for them. They'll get promoted, go further, tow the line, and brag in 20 years how they have moved 18 times and been divorced three times.

You're doing it the right way, before I left I told my superintendent that if I could do it again I would go into TE&Y, learn the job real good, and then only get into management if I got bored.

He didnt like that much, I figure he was thinking the same thing.

Good luck!

 #367191  by freshmeat
 
What Paddy said and he said it very well.

Plan on relocating a lot. Family, we don't care about no stinking family! (See: Blazing Saddles)

Being a TM has got to be the worse job since first line manager at Boeing. (Which I was not one of.) You get it from all sides. From the rank and file, local chairman, your boss, crew management, chief dispatcher, customers, Maint. of Way and the list goes on and on.

Lately on BNSF we've seen a trend to hire right out of college rather than the rank and file. I personally think there are two reasons. One, the new TM will not have any seniority so he is stuck as being on official. Without haveing bragaining unit seniority, they can't go back to the craft. Second, they dangle $60K in front of these kids and they bite, thinking that is great money. Well after about 3 years, it isn't for what you have to do for it.

For my money, the rank and file is where it's at.

 #367264  by git a holt to it
 
Looks like that covers it all. nuff said :-)

 #367270  by Newguy
 
Thanks for all the info guys. You've really opened my eyes about something I thought I knew about.

Is TM the only mgt. position available for a Conductor? I'd like something that is a little less hectic as far as hours go after a few years.

 #367306  by paddy78
 
freshmeat wrote:
Lately on BNSF we've seen a trend to hire right out of college rather than the rank and file. I personally think there are two reasons. One, the new TM will not have any seniority so he is stuck as being on official. Without haveing bragaining unit seniority, they can't go back to the craft. Second, they dangle $60K in front of these kids and they bite, thinking that is great money. Well after about 3 years, it isn't for what you have to do for it.
You hit this one dead on. Not having a seniorty date doesnt give you jack to fall back on. The management programs are very reluctant to take anyone in with TE&Y time, and those programs are the real ticket to advancement. Its just the way things are set up now and some of the guys who do make it through these programs are really sharp; the ones who are not so sharp give the oldheads a lot to complain about and rightfully so.

And the pay is an issue, my jaw dropped the first time i pulled a payroll record on a guy and he made more in a half than I did in 2 months. But I was in management before in another industry and the pay in the railroad seemed unbelieveable. It wouldve taken me 10 years to make that in my old line of work. But still, hindsight is 20/20 and you are right, HR doesnt advertise the fact that you can make more in the ranks than you can as a TM hands down. But a couple of promotions later and you will make more than any trainman in the system, so its give some take some.

But hindsight is 20/20, newguy. If there is a next time for me I am going to put in my time, work the job, and only go back to management if things change or I feel the need to introduce more stress into my life. Not bloody likely on either count!

 #367315  by paddy78
 
Newguy wrote:

Is TM the only mgt. position available for a Conductor? I'd like something that is a little less hectic as far as hours go after a few years.
yeah, it is essential TM or nothing. The job track goes assistant trainmaster, trainmaster, then terminal trainmaster or assistant superintendent, then you are getting up to the superintendent level where the titles dont change that much, territory and responsibilty jsut keeps getting bigger (and the hours get longer believe it or not). Engineers can become road foremen, which is technically a management job, but all you do is test, ride, and train new engineers; you dont make any operating decisions, which for me was the fun stuff.

An alternative for many conductors is to go into training. HR hires conductors as contract trainers and some even make it into the ranks of the rules guys, which is a sweet, sweet job. But most railroads only have four or five rules gurus, so dont bank on it. being a peer trainer can be a good gig or a nightmare, just depends on the terminal. The trainer in my terminal spent more hours on the phone than the entire managment team combined; his constant fight with CMS kept him very, very busy.

the only "normal" jobs are found in corporate where guys work for crew managment, procurement, real estate, HR, customer support, IT, finance, marketing, ect. I have seen TE&Y folks get into these jobs, but remeber that you will be jousting guys off the street with highly specialized degrees. Lots of MBAs and such here so conductor experience isnt exactly a golden ticket.

oh wait, being a clerk is a normal job! If you can work for $14 an hour, there you go.

 #367495  by git a holt to it
 
BNSF goes ATM on sante fe properties which are yardmasters with no rights and they do ops tests, terminal trainmasters, division trainmasters, assistant supt(terminal manager) terminal supt and division supt and so on. Trainmasters are salary band 29 which is 5400-6000 per month but the ones at my terminal earn 76000 to 80000 annually plus bonuses. You might consider yarmaster, you are still union and technically earn more money, by that I mean a basic day is much higher than a conductor or engineer, TY&E make more because of all the hours they put in.Chief dispatcher would be another one to consider.

 #370548  by route_rock
 
Wait till you get set up as an engineer and you can be an RFE. The road foreman here have been changing it seems every 5 years (with some exception) They get set up as a foreman, spend 5 years and get vested in the management pension then go back to the road as engineers. Seems like a sweet deal till you realize all the headaches.
Rules trainer would be a good deal too until you get that one guy that cant see the forest for the trees.
Also on the ole BNSF you can become a yardmaster. Two of my friends here ( one a daily mark switch person and a hostler) went on to become yardmasters.Better money but still headaches.
Its up to you what you want to do and asking questions will help that decision making. I would rather know from others before making that jump then doing it and finding out it wasnt a good idea.

 #370701  by thebigc
 
freshmeat wrote:
Lately on BNSF we've seen a trend to hire right out of college rather than the rank and file. I personally think there are two reasons. One, the new TM will not have any seniority so he is stuck as being on official. Without haveing bragaining unit seniority, they can't go back to the craft. Second, they dangle $60K in front of these kids and they bite, thinking that is great money. Well after about 3 years, it isn't for what you have to do for it.

For my money, the rank and file is where it's at.
One other thing; the kids they get out of college don't have any prior axes to grind or buddies they'll "take care of" either.

 #370970  by conrail_engineer
 
Newguy:

The others, P78 especially, summed it up well. One other consideration: ALL the friends you are making now, as a new guy, as you're getting to know them...YOU WILL LOSE THEM. Senior management will want and expect you to be a d@#%head when dealing with them - current management philosophy doesn't want to lead people so much as drive them, like cattle.

You, as a new guy-made-management, won't have "street cred." They'll remember when THEY were teaching YOU the job, and they'll take offense when YOU start enforcing the rules against THEM. ESPECIALLY when those rules are the new ones that make NO sense.

Trust me on this. I had two good friends go into management, one hired with me and the other a year after me. The first guy, who had been management in other industries, got such a smellaroo reputation, he got shipped to the other end of the state. He's good and resourceful, so once he got to where people didn't remember him as a new-kid, he did well.

The other...everyone's sore at him because they remember him as a lot of fun and a great party-partner at away terminals. Now he's out there with the Night Vision goggles, checking for safety glasses, puttting up banners...he's called "two-faced" and a "backstabber."

Be warned. This is how it will go for you. You may not love the guys you're working with now; but these are the people you spend every working day with. Do you want them all to turn on you? It's psychologically upsetting.

 #383774  by MuddyAxles
 
I almost got hired by BNSF in 1999 but was hired by CSX instead. Sounds like there is absolutely NO difference between the two other than geography.

As for the original thread question, I didn't read past paddy's reply........What he said.

Ditto

Ditto

Did I say ditto yet?

This is not a real world here. It's more like "Through the looking glass" where everything is distorted somehow.

Choose T&E or Management....don't try to cross over...you'll be distrusted by all if you do.

Just my 2 cents.

Also, the company doesn't want mgr's who actually KNOW anything about the operating crafts, THEY will tell you ALL you need to know.

(Another 1-1/2 cents.)

 #384659  by NorfolkChris
 
Do the ATMs or TMs work all of the holidays and weekends like the craft guys do? Or do they pretty much just do whatever they want?
 #384728  by MuddyAxles
 
...there is a company official either on duty (physically present, somewhere) or on call 24/7/365. Certain positions are actually staffed 24/7/365 whether trains/jobs work or not.

Once you're able to conduct yourself alone as a TM or ATM, who do you suppose gets the worst shifts? Probably not the old guys....'nuff said?