Being allowed to carry a gun

[abc8251]

Do you think passenger train service employees should be allowed to carry a gun? I know the rules prohibit weapons of any kind. I personally think they should be allowed to carry a concealed handgun for protection. Sometimes a passenger can get violent. Even some yards in freight are in dangerous parts of the city.

[SemperFidelis]

Considering how maturely gun politics are handled in America, this one ought to be fun...

Anyone have popcorn?

[COEN77]

You didn't hear this from me but some do have guns in their grips. lol. Rules prohibit carrying any weapons. If they do get caught one has to know the price which would most likely be termination hopefully no criminal charges for carrying on federal property. The crack down came about back in the late '80s. A persons grip is private property they can't search it without a warrant or probable cause. Two of my co-workers when they showed up for work back in the early '90s the trainmaster and special agents were waiting for them. A van driver turned them in the trip before after he noticed handguns in their grip while loading up the van. Luckily they never put them into their grip till heading to the train and seeing the special agents didn't have a warrant they couldn't search their vehicles. Also luckily they didn't pursue it by getting a warrant.

[DutchRailnut]

on Metro-North or LIRR it would be immediate termination, not only because company rule, but federal rules and New York City restrictions.

[slchub]

Railroad logic. You have to be an employee to understand.

I am sure you'll find someone on the property who is carrying, but 99% of us understand how good we have it and are not going to risk our career, benefits and retirement in order to carry a weapon.

In the event that something does happen while you are on RR property you'll be in a much better position to play the RR lotto and get a handsome payout than defend yourself and your career in the court of law.

Locomotive engineers are already put under the microscope at the scene of an railroad crossing accident though it is no fault of their own that a person decided to ignore the warnings and drive in front of a train. Can you imagine if a locomotive engineer used a weapon which is prohibited while on duty/property? The "victim" would no doubt sue the RR and you for having a weapon.

No thanks.

[Watchman318]

You didn't hear this from me but some do have guns in their grips. lol. Rules prohibit carrying any weapons. If they do get caught one has to know the price which would most likely be termination hopefully no criminal charges for carrying on federal property.

Other than bans on possession of weapons in courthouses, VA facilities, post offices, etc., I don't know of any laws against "carrying on federal property" per se. And how many railroads are actually federal property? I guess Amtrak rolling stock would be considered federal property, but I've never found anything in the U.S. Code against carrying firearms on railroad property. If anyone can cite chapter/section/etc., please do.

But if company rules (including Amtrak) prohibit it, then that's a whole 'nother set of things to think about. To me, it would almost seem like employers would allow employees to have at least some less-lethal means of self defense ("Whaddya mean, no more brake clubs?"), maybe requiring training before allowing employees to carry it, but I know there are lots of arguments that could be made for or against that, too.

Spot those covered hoppers with the popcorn right here.

[DutchRailnut]

every railroad under FRA rules is federal property, and also just about every class 1 has a no-firearms clause in their rule book, usually found in letter rules.

2.  While on duty, or at any time on Company property, employees are prohibited  from: 
a.  Possessing firearms and other dangerous weapons, unless authorized in  writing by the Vice President – Operations. 
b.  Participating in gambling, fighting, or any other illegal, immoral or  unauthorized activity. 

[CPJorgensen]

To add to slchub's post, anytime someone screws up, the RR adds it to the rule book. We'd see something to the extent of TSA screenings persuant to GCOR x.xx upon entering the property the very next day if someone had a firearm mishap. Not to mention that lawyers will go after whoever has the deepest pockets and the RR's don't want that risk.

[COEN77]

I don't know of any laws against "carrying on federal property" per se. And how many railroads are actually federal property? I guess Amtrak rolling stock would be considered federal property, but I've never found anything in the U.S. Code against carrying firearms on railroad property. If anyone can cite chapter/section/etc., please do

Railroads are under federal jurisdiction. Every crossing incident etc... I was under no obligation to speak to local authority. In fact I had to wait till someone from the railroad showed up to make the call. As for my comment on federal charges I threw that in for effect.

[Watchman318]

every railroad under FRA rules is federal property, and also just about every class 1 has a no-firearms clause in their rule book, usually found in letter rules.

Company rules are one thing, and anyone who works there should know that they can become unemployed by violating those rules. But although (most) railroads are regulated by the FRA, railroad rights-of-way and "appurtenant properties" are private property. The only exceptions are state-owned lines like those that Maine DOT purchased, or the Amtrak-owned majority of the Northeast Corridor.
If you can cite anything in the Code of Federal Regulations that says otherwise, please do. By a citation, I mean a specific section of a specific title of the CFR, not some notion that because they're federally regulated, they're federal property. I'm sure the companies that pay property taxes on those rights-of-way would take issue with that idea.

[sarsnavy05]

So based upon the previous conversations, it seems that the takeaway is that there's really no provision for train crew protection, unless specifically authorized by the company.
I thought this was kind of strange as a blanket policy considering the monetary value and potentially hazardous nature of railroad equipment and cargo.
On the personnel side, pretty much every freight terminal down here is located in a section of town that isn't usually known for its golf courses and coffee bistros. Also, at least coming out of the Jacksonville Terminal (CSX/NS/AMTK), there's long stretches of road in the middle of nowhere, with nothing but forests and swamps for miles. The wildlife is bad enough on edge of town, but out there, I'm sure it's more of an issue.

More for the sake of curiosity, rather than argument, is there anything in company policy that provides for employee safety in these cases?

[Watchman318]

So based upon the previous conversations, it seems that the takeaway is that there's really no provision for train crew protection, unless specifically authorized by the company.
I thought this was kind of strange as a blanket policy considering the monetary value and potentially hazardous nature of railroad equipment and cargo.

For those companies that have special agents, their take is probably "let the cops handle it." And generally these days, theft of cargo or car/locomotive parts (traction motors, air brake valves, etc.) is generally done by "stealth and deception" (larceny/theft) rather than by use or threat of force (robbery). The Conrail Boyz put a lot of time and effort into stealing stuff, but I don't think they ever used violence.
That's not to say that none of the thieves would be armed, but management is very likely to be thinking "Let it go. It's not worth a lawsuit over someone--even a criminal--getting shot. The cargo is insured."
Not too many years ago on our local line, there was a vagrant who tried to hold up a freight crew with a pellet gun. They locked up the cab and looked at him through the windows. (Probably laughing at him.)

More for the sake of curiosity, rather than argument, is there anything in company policy that provides for employee safety in these cases?

Probably nothing more than "Stay in the locomotive cab. Close and lock doors and windows. Notify the dispatcher." One last part would probably either be "Wait for police response" or "Motor on out of there."
Personally, I've never worked anywhere that had a "no weapons on duty" policy, or ever addressed what employees should do if accosted. Other than the eejit with the pellet gun, this area is relatively free from the perils of real urban areas.

[slchub]

So based upon the previous conversations, it seems that the takeaway is that there's really no provision for train crew protection, unless specifically authorized by the company.
I thought this was kind of strange as a blanket policy considering the monetary value and potentially hazardous nature of railroad equipment and cargo.
On the personnel side, pretty much every freight terminal down here is located in a section of town that isn't usually known for its golf courses and coffee bistros. Also, at least coming out of the Jacksonville Terminal (CSX/NS/AMTK), there's long stretches of road in the middle of nowhere, with nothing but forests and swamps for miles. The wildlife is bad enough on edge of town, but out there, I'm sure it's more of an issue.

More for the sake of curiosity, rather than argument, is there anything in company policy that provides for employee safety in these cases?

Take a couple of fusees with you. That will usually give you a sense of "security". However, after having walked trains at 0300 in the middle of nowhere the closest I've ever come to an animal confrontation was watching those green or red eyes looking at me while I look at them with the lantern. Walking on the ballast will usually clue in most animals to go the other way. However, those pesky reptiles tend to stay put. Watch your step.

[nessman]

Regardless of what your employer's rules/regulations / "I don't know nothing" wink-wink by your foreman unwritten rules are regarding carrying a weapon on you - keep in mind that railroads cross through different jurisdictions and state lines. For example - if you work out of a terminal in PA and are on a run that ends in NY - as soon as you cross over into NY, because NY doesn't recognize out of state pistol permits, you're committing a very serious felony in this state. If something happens within NY and you are caught with by law enforcement with your gun on your person - you are not going home at the end of your shift.

[slchub]

Not to mention the fact that if you are in a serious enough incident you and your grip will be sequestered by the Feds/NTBS/FRA. Watch what you carry. You are not working at Burger King where you can have it your way.