Andover Junction trackage rights

[tristate]

Hello all
Can anyone tell me who (if anyone) had trackage rights or might just have occasionally ran over the LHR below Andover Jct around 1963-1965?
Thanks in advance.

[Dump The Air]

From my limited knowledge, no overhead trackage rights trains operated over that section of the L&HR, the L&HR did lease a mixed bag of motive power and CNJ engines and cabooses were seen on AO-1 often.

[CAR_FLOATER]

Correct, no trackage rights agreements south of Andover, but run thru and horesepower mileage ballancing did occur regularly with Reading, PRR and CNJ power.
there are enough shots out there in the "popular press" showing these trains & power.

CF

[SooLineRob]

Hello all,

It's been awhile since I read the various publications about the L&HR, so my memory may be "off". Not to directly contradict C_F, but I understand...

The PRR (and later PC) actually had trackage rights to run there own trains/crews Belvidere to Maybrook. This came about when the L&H gained their trackage rights, from the PRR, down the Bel-Del from Belvidere to Philipsburg to reach the Delaware River Bridge and the CNJ/LV at Easton. The era in which these PRR run-throughs began isn't clear, but 1963-65 may have been possible. I recall late PRR ('68) symbol freights NE-2 and NE-1 ran the L&H to Maybrook, as well as PC era run-throughs. I also recall the PC era run-throughs were due to the poor condition and congestion of the ex-NYC River Line. I have a PC system map showing the L&HR route Belvidere to Maybrook as "Overhead Trackage Rights".

Somewhere in this website, (PRR or PC Forum?) a former PRR(PC) employee, "TSP-5 TSP-6", shed some light on this topic.

The CNJ "rights" were not "trackage rights", but were the result of the agreement reached between the L&HR and CNJ concerning employee's work. The CNJ couldn't just run their own trains/crews over the L&HR whenever they wanted to. Because the L&HR ran to/from Allentown over CNJ track between Allentown and Easton, the CNJ was "compensated" by having CNJ locomotives and crews run over the L&HR to Maybrook. When the L&HR mileage over CNJ track added up to a run over the L&HR mileage to Maybrook, the CNJ ran their own locomotives and crews over the L&HR to "equalize" the mileage of each road's portion of the run. Keep in mind, the locomotives and crews weren't "paired up"; L&HR crews used CNJ units and CNJ crews used L&HR locomotives. Pictures abound of mixed L&H/CNJ locomotive consists, so the locomotives weren't an indication which crew was running the train that day. This practice ended when the L&HR quit running to Allentown and interchanged with the CNJ at Hudson Yard, Phillipsburg NJ, circa 1971. No L&HR crews on CNJ rails = No CNJ crews on L&HR rails.

Making an educated guess, the formula most likely worked:

Allentown to Maybrook = 111.2 miles; 16 miles was CNJ.

7 runs by L&HR crews/locomotives over CNJ rails meant the 8th run would go to CNJ crews/locomotives. So, every 8th day, AO-4 would have a CNJ crew out of Allentown and they'd return out of Maybrook that evening on OA-1.

In addition, RDG units were used on the L&HR. While the Reading officially ended at Allentown, it's most likely the RDG units made their way onto L&H rails as a result of the CNJ "borrowing" them and using the RDG units on the L&H Maybrook jobs, as well as run-through unit coal trains. I haven't seen any photos of mixed L&HR/RDG locomotive consists, but have seen CNJ/RDG mixed as well as solid RDG consists, which leads me to believe the RDG units were "borrowed" and run-through.

Keep in mind, there's a significant difference between the PRR(PC) and CNJ agreements with the L&HR:

The PRR(PC) had the right to run whatever/whenever/whomever they wanted over the L&HR Belvidere to Maybrook.
The CNJ was "restricted" to running crews/locomotives Allentown to Maybrook based on the mileage formula...

I've never read of a similar agreement between the L&HR and DL&W addressing the Port Morris to Maybrook work. As far as I know, the L&HR had trackage rights over the Sussex Branch Andover to Port Morris without any reciprocal DL&W(EL) rights over the L&HR. This "trackage rights" agreeement was limited to strictly through trains that originated out of Maybrook (NH) destined for the DL&W and vice-versa. Any cars that originated on the L&HR for the DL&W (and vice-versa) were restricted to be interchanged at Andover Junction Yard.

In summary, the PRR(PC) had trackage rights over the entire L&H unrestricted. The CNJ had limited rights over the entire L&H to supply locos and crews based on a formula. No other railroads had any rights/agreements to "set foot" on L&H property outside of yards used for interchange, such as Hudson, Andover, and Greycourt.

Please add/correct as required, since my knowledge of these operations is second-third-and fourth hand information...

[pumpers]

Well, from the site I mention below it sounds like the DLW ran over the LHR from Port Morris up to
the north end. Not just the LHR delivering cars to Port Morris Not sure if it was still going in 1965 -- this site
says it ended with the DLW/Erie merger, whenever that was.

"Before the Erie-Lackawanna merger, the DL&W used a trackage-rights agreement with the L&HR to access the Maybrook yard and New England traffic" from:
http://lhr.railfan.net/pelton.htm

[pumpers]

I see now as I read more carefully that the original query refers
to "below" Andover juction only, presumably south (or west) on the LHR.
So then I guess my comment about DLW rights is not relevant -- that would not have gone south/west of Andover. JS

[Marty Feldner]

pumpers-

That's a small part of my website; and yes, that traffic went east (north) of Andover Junction, to Maybrook. The EL merger was circa 1960 (and some consider it as 'the beginning of the end' of the L&HR).

Tristate-

Just from the wording of your question, I suspect there is a much more specific reason that you asked. Care to share with us?

Rob-

With the recently resurfaced archives, the answers to the various agreements could very well be buried in legalese deep in the boxes. We're still a long way from being able to do that kind of digging, though. (And Bob Ritzer says 'hi'- I talked to him a few times over the last few weeks.)

[SooLineRob]

Marty,

Thanks for addressing this topic. The various forms of "rights" one road has with another is a topic unto itself! Good luck digging into that large pile of paperwork! On the surface, it's benign to see "foreign" power on any road, but the legalese behind it peaks the curiousity of a small group of fans like myself. Just how DID those DL&W locomotives get to Maybrook ... and whose crew was running those trains? Those sort of "details" makes life a little more interesting for some of us! It would be great if your research efforts yielded a previously unknown agreement that said "...the DL&W RR shall supply crews and locomotives, and the L&HR RR shall supply pilots if needed, for all Extra Trains between Port Morris and Maybrook..."