Pushers on the LV in WNY

[nydepot]

Reading through "Rails North" by the CNY Chapter NRHS, there is a photo on page 27 of a double-headed LV train in Depew (1948) and another in Lancaster, also 1948, with a pusher.

I didn't think there was any grade there at all. What was the grade in that area? Did pushers end with diesel?

Charles

[charlie6017]

I'm wondering maybe the westbound picked up the pusher at Rochester Jct and needed the push between Leroy and Batavia and just stayed on to Buffalo?

Not so sure myself.......

[scottychaos]

doesnt make sense that there would be a need for pushers out there..
thats pretty flat territory!
unless it was a really unusually heavy train for some reason..and actually needed a pusher for some minor grades..
but it certainty wasnt a normal procedure out that way..

The only LV "pusher district" I have heard of in NY state was getting up and out of Ithaca..

Scot

[nydepot]

The photo with the pushers lists a 70-car train of normal 40' cars. Both are eastbound out of Buffalo.

Charles

[scottychaos]

Could they maybe have been "dead in tow" locomotives being hauled east, stuck on the rear of a regular train..

Or perhaps brand new locomotives being delivered?
perhaps not under power, just being hauled as part of the train by the locos at the front..

Is there any indication in the book (or from the photos) that the locos are actually under power?

(I have the book at home! I should have checked the photos last night! I will take a look when I get home this afternoon)

Scot

[scottychaos]

Here is a thought..
this idea just came to me while writing a PM to Charles..

this is total speculation on my part! I have nothing to back it up, and I could be way off base..

But there seems to be evidence for fairly common LV pusher use out near Buffalo..
perhaps it was more common than we think, but the LV downplayed the use of pushers..why?

well..some grades couldnt be hidden from customers..like the DL&W Dansville Hill..
and many railroads had serious grades in Eastern PA..
but perhaps this Western NY LV "pusher district" was small enough that the LV felt they could keep it "hidden" and keep it from customers,
which would certaintly be a competitive advantage!
the LV wouldnt want to advertise that it had grade issues that required pushers..especially if it was a small enough operation
that it could be effectively "hidden" from the world..the LV could certaintly benefit by keeping it hushed up..

just a thought..and just a wild guess..
but it would explain why we do have obscure pusher evidence out that way..and why no one seems to know anything about it!

Scot

[charlie6017]

I'm not trying to sound naive about it, but maybe I am........why would the LV (or any other carrier) want to tone down the usage of pushers to its customers? Is it a fear of possible damage to the goods they are carrying? Just curious............

Thanks,
Charlie

[nydepot]

Under power. Lots of smoke in the photos. Although, the double-header captioned in one photo has fairly light smoke.

The engineers I've talked to, the pushers in diesel days would be run-8 the whole way from Caledonia to Niagara Jct.

Charles

Could they maybe have been "dead in tow" locomotives being hauled east, stuck on the rear of a regular train..

Or perhaps brand new locomotives being delivered?
perhaps not under power, just being hauled as part of the train by the locos at the front..

Is there any indication in the book (or from the photos) that the locos are actually under power?

(I have the book at home! I should have checked the photos last night! I will take a look when I get home this afternoon)

Scot

[scottychaos]

I'm not trying to sound naive about it, but maybe I am........why would the LV (or any other carrier) want to tone down the usage of pushers to its customers? Is it a fear of possible damage to the goods they are carrying? Just curious............

Thanks,
Charlie

Pushers and grades = potentially slower railroad..not something you want your customers to focus on when choosing which railroad to use.

the LV had three major competitors on the New York City to Buffalo route,
New York Central, DL&W and Erie..
each route had advantages and disadvantages..
grades and pushers is definately a disadvantage..

I think the DL&W was technically the shortest route, in miles..but they had heavy grades..
(the main reason the DL&W mainline does not exist today.)
New York Central was longest, but was very flat. (the main reason it still exists today)
LV and Erie were somewhere in the middle in terms of length and grades..

to gain customers, you want to emphasize the advantages of your route, compared to your competitors routes,
and downplay any disadvantages..thats a possible reason the LV wuld have "kept quiet" about minor grades..or so im guessing.
like I said, some grades were just "common knowledge" and couldnt be hushed-up..everyone knew about them.
Dansville Hill, the Poconos, etc..there is no hiding those!
but perhaps not so with "minor" grades like this possible Buffalo pusher district we are discussing..

Scot

[lvrr325]

NYC/PC/Conrail were known for ue of helpers on the hill coming out of Batavia, although they became less and less frequent in the diesel era (under Conrail this tended to be mostly rescues of underpowered trains that stalled). The LV parallells the NYC pretty close from about Batavia onward. It's not a monster grade, but it's enough. Even the Thruway has a couple pretty good hills in that stretch. It boils down to the Genesee River floodplain being lower than the ground to the west. LV helper use doesn't surprise me at all.

[charlie6017]

Pushers and grades = potentially slower railroad..not something you want your customers to focus on when choosing which railroad to use.

the LV had three major competitors on the New York City to Buffalo route,
New York Central, DL&W and Erie..
each route had advantages and disadvantages..
grades and pushers is definately a disadvantage..

I think the DL&W was technically the shortest route, in miles..but they had heavy grades..
(the main reason the DL&W mainline does not exist today.)
New York Central was longest, but was very flat. (the main reason it still exists today)
LV and Erie were somewhere in the middle in terms of length and grades..

to gain customers, you want to emphasize the advantages of your route, compared to your competitors routes,
and downplay any disadvantages..thats a possible reason the LV wuld have "kept quiet" about minor grades..or so im guessing.
like I said, some grades were just "common knowledge" and couldnt be hushed-up..everyone knew about them.
Dansville Hill, the Poconos, etc..there is no hiding those!
but perhaps not so with "minor" grades like this possible Buffalo pusher district we are discussing..

Scot

Thanks Scotty!

Charlie

[nydepot]

Pushers don't surprise me either but I'm looking for documentation, like from ETTs or something. There is tons of proof of Byron Hill. The DL&W is right next to the LV out there too and I haven't heard of DL&W pushers. Then you have Erie pushers for Attica Hill. Those are all documented though.

Charles

NYC/PC/Conrail were known for ue of helpers on the hill coming out of Batavia, although they became less and less frequent in the diesel era (under Conrail this tended to be mostly rescues of underpowered trains that stalled). The LV parallells the NYC pretty close from about Batavia onward. It's not a monster grade, but it's enough. Even the Thruway has a couple pretty good hills in that stretch. It boils down to the Genesee River floodplain being lower than the ground to the west. LV helper use doesn't surprise me at all.

[TB Diamond]

Became very familiar with LVRR operations Sayre-Buffalo E/1973-E/1976. Never heard of helpers being utilized during that period but that is simply personal experience. Can find nothing in LVRR ETTs 1950s-1975 pertaining to helper districts. Am inclined to think that helpers on the LVRR MT in WNY were used only in the case of extra heavy trains or failed power. The only proof of helper use that comes to mind would be a record of train movement from one of the stations or a dispatcher sheet recording the use and movement of helper power. Another source would be a crew caller record. Unfortunatey, the bulk of such material was long ago lost.

[lvrr325]

LV records from Geneva were pretty much there for the taking until about 1983, when the person who fought Conrail to buy the station disposed of them as a "fire hazard" ... but someone must have swiped a lot of stuff out of the dumpster, because I've run across them on eBay from a couple different sources. (they pretty much have to be out of there, stamped Geneva, and complete files I was able to aquire ended about 1961).

But from '76-'83 or so you were taking your life in your hands to go in there, too, between the collapsed waiting room floor, flooded basement, and the possibility of vagrants or vandals about.


As for the helpers, for the most part the diesel era ended the need for all but the worst graded helper districts, so any helper use on the LV would likely have been like up on the NYC - only needed when trains stalled for some reason.

[nydepot]

I've talked first hand to LV engineers who had trains pushed across WNY with the pushers in notch-8 during later diesel time. Pushers were added to trains before the train even had a chance to stall at any location. It's not an insubstantial distance to push from say P&L Jct to Niagara Jct. It wasn't every train or maybe even every 10th train but they existed.

I agree with TB that you'll probably find an answer on some train sheets somewhere. But as I mentioned earlier, employee timetables from other roads operating in WNY carried instructions on how to operate a helpers, when needed, in specific areas. There are instructions for the PRR Buffalo line, Rochester Branch, Erie's Attica Hill, and the B&O's Warsaw Hill. Brake tests, retainers (in the old days), PSI, speeds, limits, etc. All kinds of things. Because each area is different. Instructions for Horseshoe Curve would be different than for near Lime Lake on the PRR. And not every train needed help, but when they did, the instructions were there.

So why no instructions on the LV? Certainly in the Finger Lakes and PA, they had instructions.

I'm not trying to beleaguer the point of pushers or have a discussion on the merits of helpers in the railroad industry. I was just hoping someone had some LV rules on pushers in WNY. Helpers existed - obviously more than people realize.

Charles

LV records from Geneva were pretty much there for the taking until about 1983, when the person who fought Conrail to buy the station disposed of them as a "fire hazard" ... but someone must have swiped a lot of stuff out of the dumpster, because I've run across them on eBay from a couple different sources. (they pretty much have to be out of there, stamped Geneva, and complete files I was able to aquire ended about 1961).

But from '76-'83 or so you were taking your life in your hands to go in there, too, between the collapsed waiting room floor, flooded basement, and the possibility of vagrants or vandals about.


As for the helpers, for the most part the diesel era ended the need for all but the worst graded helper districts, so any helper use on the LV would likely have been like up on the NYC - only needed when trains stalled for some reason.