Railroad Forums 

  • 32 Years Ago (March 31, 1976)

  • Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.
Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

Moderator: scottychaos

 #521454  by bwparker1
 
Kendaia1 wrote:The Lehigh Valley seems like an old friend I didn't know I had, and miss now that it is long gone. The Strange thing is that you can still feel it's presence when passing an old right of way, or jct, or in our case see the track down to the army depot still occasionally used.
Amen to that. I was -2 years old when the LV bit the dust... but thanks to the posters on these forums, I have come to develop a deep respect for the railroaders of the Eastern Fallen Flags that went on to serve Conrail, short lines, etc. Your historical accounts are appreciated.

BWP

 #521510  by TB Diamond
 
Kandaia1:

In the early 1970s, while poking around the abandoned Kendaia station, I found a packet of Lehigh Valley RR Form 19 train orders bearing 1964 dates.

In addition, in my files there is a correspondence from G.F. Lorsong, Freight Agent, Geneva, NY to J.C. Wyckoff, Agent, Kendaia, NY dated 21 August 1964.

Therefore, Kendaia station and agency remained open at least until August, 1964 and, I am sure, for some time after.

 #521516  by BR&P
 
There's a familiar name! G.F. "Gerry" Lorsong later became Agent at Charlotte for Conrail, after Woody retired. I had the pleasure of working there with Gerry for some time about 1977 and found him top-notch. He knew his stuff and was easy to get along with.

 #521526  by DElder
 
Kendaia1:
First, welcome to the forum. If you hang around here much, you'll quickly learn that TB is "the real deal", and was there when most of the things that we like to talk about here were actually going on. He's a great resource, and we really appreciate his willingness to share his knowledge
and memories with us.

While we're on this "where were you on March 31st '76" topic, guess I was probably sitting in a classroom in Potsdam NY in my junior year of college, probably immersed in some boring engineering-related topic and not paying any attention to what was the end of the railroad that I grew up loving. College, cars, girls, etc. took me away from railfanning between '73 and the end of the Valley in '76, and that's something that I've come to regret more as the years pass and the LV memories get a bit foggier. Penn Central ran some trains through Potsdam, if I recall correctly, but I just couldn't get interested enough to pay much attention; they weren't the LV, not even close!

I grew up just north of Trumansburg NY, and our property backed up to the Geneva-to-T-burg branch (the old passenger main, cut back to branchline status) that stayed in service until (I believe) 1967, with weekly service, oftentimes at night. The track was in bad shape near the end of service, and I often wondered how they managed to keep those trains (typically an RS2 or RS3 and only one or two cars) on the rails; speeds were very slow, particularly during those snowy Finger Lakes winters when the snow over the tracks could get fairly deep. Only traffic near the end was an occasional coal hopper for the local fuel/coal dealer, and feed that went to the local GLF. A sad end for a line that originally hosted the Black Diamond, but it left me with some great memories just the same!

Thanks to everyone that shared their memories of March '76 here!
Doug Elder

 #521534  by DElder
 
Sorry for the double-post, gang (but hey, any complementary comments with regard to TB bear repeating, right??).
Doug

 #521554  by Kendaia1
 
thank you folks for the warm welcome. while I don't work in the rail industry, railroading has always held a certain fascination with me and part of me wishes I could just quit my current life and become a train engineer!

Every day I drive past the old Lehigh Valley grade that loops around Seneca Falls on its way to Lehigh Jct. and the NYC Auburn Road. Does anyone know when that route was last used, and what customers were served in Waterloo and Seneca Falls by the LV?

Also a friend of my family informed my that her father worked in the area on the LV, at least some of the time in the Geneva area. His last name was Case, not sure of his first name, maybe Frank. Just curious if anybody knew him.

Another question- I made earlier mention that my grandparents lived near the Freight Main in Seneca County. I recall alot of crossings that had just the white "X" style railroad crossing signs, no lights or gates. How fast did the trains run through this area, and how frequently? And was this a double track road to the end? were they both used?

Thank you for putting up with my questions and curiosity!

 #521704  by Lehighton_Man
 
Every day I drive past the old Lehigh Valley grade that loops around Seneca Falls on its way to Lehigh Jct. and the NYC Auburn Road. Does anyone know when that route was last used, and what customers were served in Waterloo and Seneca Falls by the LV?
I believe the line between Seneca Falls and Waterloo was pulled up in 36'.(or atleast a section of it was) I think the line up from Ithaca to Auburn was still in service, but it didnt connect completely to the LV main.
Another question- I made earlier mention that my grandparents lived near the Freight Main in Seneca County. I recall alot of crossings that had just the white "X" style railroad crossing signs, no lights or gates. How fast did the trains run through this area, and how frequently? And was this a double track road to the end? were they both used?

The Cross Bucks you speak of might've been used in the 30s-50s, since the line does have cross bucks, lights, and a gate.(on the remaining portion of the freight main south of geneva) As for double track, yes, it was, up into the late 60s, when traffic dwindled, so they single tracked the line(except in portions for passing sidings) I've seen videos on old 16mm film after attending Guil-Mack's house, and Lehigh Collection. Very fascinating to see videos of the freight main still active, and massive Century 628s crossing the concrete overpass.

We dont mind the questions, i always love to offer my opinon, but some seem to think that mine doesnt matter sometime :-P
Anyway, glad to see you as a fellow lehigher.
Any more questions, feel free to ask.
Cheers.
Sean
[/code]

 #521860  by TB Diamond
 
BR&P:

Glad to hear that you knew Mr. Lorsong. I never met the gentleman, but wish that I had.

DE:

Thank you for the kind comments. The Lehigh Valley RR was for me a family affair as I had several relatives who worked for the company. Alas, they have now all passed on. Will never forget the stories my grandfather related to me about the LV. He worked for the line 1907-1963 out of Sayre. You are correct on the year the Lehigh abandoned the Ithaca Branch, Geneva Jct.-Trumansburg (1967).

Kendaia:

I gave the incorrect information about the closing of the Kendaia station (late 1960s). My bad. Buffalo Div. Zone E B.O. No. 849 eff. 21 April 1965 shows the block station at Kendaia going part time open 06:00-15:00 daily ex. Saturday, Sunday and Holidays. Then Buffalo Div. Zone E G.O. No 820 eff. 10:01 Tuesday 07 September 1965, para. (d) shows the Kendaia block station abandoned. This G.O. put CTC in effect between Geneva Jct. Int. and Gilbert Int. This eliminated the previous ABS (Rule 251) territory and the need for a block station at Kendaia. Double track was eliminated by this G.O. and thereafter the LV was single MT Geneva Jct.-Gilbert Int. with a passing siding between Kendaia Int. and Gilbert Int. (Gilbert-Hinman went CTC on 18 Dec. 1964). Around 1973 the passing siding was cut back to Ordnance Int. and Gilbert Int. was abandoned. Track speed for freight trains between State Line and Tifft Jct., unless otherwise restricted, was 40 mph towards the end of operations. However, the Buffalo Div. dispatcher could and many times did authorize AP-2 via train order to operate at 60 mph Gilbert Station-Hinman Int. except 50 mph on curves between MP 310.0 and Odessa.

The Lehigh Valley RR Seneca Falls Branch Geneva Jct.-L.V. Jct., 12 miles, was abandoned in 1969. The Seneca Falls Branch, 2 miles, was abandoned in 1958. Will dig out some of the customer names when I find the time. Think that they are in a post I made some time back if you care to do a search.

Lehighton:

Check the above info for the correct dates for the Seneca Branch abandonments and for the elimination of double track on the LVRR in the Kendaia area.

Crossbucks remained in use for some Lehigh Valley MT grade crossings to the end of operations on 31 March 1976. The use of same depended on the vehicular traffic density of any given crossing and not on a particular era. As the safety of the crossing became an issue with increased vehicular traffic, then automatic grade crossing gates and lights were installed. Some of the legal folks who post can quote the regulations and how the installation of the new gates and/or lights were financed.

BTW: your opinions do matter and do not mind us old folks who throw a correction or two at you from time-to-time. Your input is valued.
Last edited by TB Diamond on Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #521884  by Kendaia1
 
WOW, TB Diamond you truly are a resource! You also must have worked for the LV, not just your relatives. Thanks for the response. But could you please clarify for me what the abbreviations are? G.O. (general order?) CTC, ABS, MT, Int (no clue). Also, I have never heard of a place around here called Hinman (although I know some people by that name). Where on the line was Hinman?

The Mainline cut across quite a few side roads in our area and I clearly remember the crossbuck signs. All the main highways usually had an underpass, except near Willard where there was a BIG cut for the railroad and the highway went over the top.

 #522110  by BR&P
 
Frank Case sounds familiar - I did not work with him as I did Gerry Lorsong but it rings a bell. Let me ask a few guys and see if they can jog my memory, I might be able to get you some info.

 #522146  by TB Diamond
 
Kendaia1:

G.O.= General order
CTC= Centralized Traffic Control
ABS= Automatic Block System
MT= Main Track
Int= Interlocking

Hinman Int. was between Alpine Jct. and Odessa off Pertl Road. Literally out in the country. It was at MP 299.7. During ABS days Hinman was at MP 299.1 and had both a east and a west siding.

The big cut you mention near Willard was called Gilbert Cut.

 #522264  by bwparker1
 
Haven't they filled in the cut since then?

Brooks

 #522399  by TB Diamond
 
bw:

Yes, the NY Rt. 96A bridge over the former LVRR r/o/w at Gilbert Cut near Willard, NY has indeed been converted to a fill. The cut itself remains extant, however. Or at least it was as of a few years ago.

Kendaia:

Never worked for the LVRR. Tried to hire on once, but there were no positions available. Hung around the line a lot from 1968-76 and got to know many of the Lehigh men in upstate NY. They were a great lot.

 #522999  by nessman
 
On 3/31/76 - I was likely picking my nose sitting in a corner in a Long Island pre-school.
 #524428  by TB Diamond
 
Kendaia:

Follows is a list of LVRR customers on the Seneca Falls branch as of November, 1955:

LV Jct.: E.R. Loy & others
Waterloo: Waterloo Mills, Inc.
" : Lon P. Flannigan
" : Seneca Kraut & Pickling Co.
" : H.R. Wixom & Son
" : F.D. Holben
" : Team tracks
" : Homestyle Food Products Co.
Seneca Jct.: Pure Ice & Coal Co.
Seneca Falls: Team track
" : Seneca Knitting Co.