The two LV 95041's

[Otto Vondrak]

Come on, Otto - read the earlier posts in this exact thread. LV 95069 was repainted to 95041 for reasons unknown. The one for sale is 95041, the one in Mt. Pleasant is really 95069.

Okay, I didn't realize the information I was looking for was in this very thread... or else I wouldn't have asked. If you're saying that CMRR indeed has the 95069, I would tend to believe it. The car came to us in Conrail paint, and it appears to be either CR 18616. Renumbering confirmed by...

http://crcaboose.railfan.net/renum.htm#N-5G

So the CMRR has LV 95069, which became CR 18616, and was repainted as LV 95041 for a number of years, and no currently wearing red paint and no markings, awaiting re-lettering as CMRR 673.

Thank you for indulging me.

[BR&P]

Aw come on, you can't convince them to make it back into 95069 again? Use your influence! Threaten them with an angry web site full of LV partisans demanding an historically accurate renumbering!

[scottychaos]

Thanks Otto!
that clears up that caboose at least..
I will update the LV caboose list so that CMRR shows the correct number..

Anyone know what happened to (the real) 95041 then?
I cant find any reference to where it went after the ebay sale..

and 95042 seems a bit conflicted too..
she is listed on some rosters as the Reading painted cab at Port Clinton,
but that one looks like genuine RDG to me...

thanks,
Scot

[scottychaos]

ok..I found the 95041, and I think we have this all figured out now!

LV 95041 is still in CR blue, former (or still) East Penn Railway, was the caboose for sale on ebay,
it wasnt sold, is still in Pennsburg, PA as of January 2008, as East Penn 18617. (18617 being the CR number)
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1027951

Many on-line sources said this caboose was "from Mt. Pleasant, NY"..it was not.
The confusion about the real 95041 being "from Mt. Pleasant, NY" stems from the fact that the CMRR,
for reasons unknown,
once painted THEIR LV caboose with the number 95041! which is the wrong number for that caboose.
but many people just naturally assumed it was correct..and why would they doubt it?
you don't suspect a museum would give a caboose the wrong number..

But for some reason they did..and CMRR actually has LV 95069, which did incorrectly wear the number 95041 for a time..

but the real 95041 was never in Mt. Pleasant, only the "fake" 95041 was in Mt. Pleasant.

The real 95041 is currently East Penn 18617 in Pennsburg PA. (or was in Jan 2008 anyway..but likely still there.)
The real 95069 is currently on the CMRR in Mt. Pleasant.


The real 95042 is still MIA..

thanks!
Scot

[BR&P]

When the B&O first repainted BR&P equipment into B&O, they painted the former number in about 2" letters - on cabooses, it was just under the B&O number. Conrail did something similar, showing the former initial and number on the upper right hand side of the equipment.

The museum certainly has every right to paint and number the 95069 into their own identification. It would be nice from a historical perspective if they saw fit to - somewhere on the caboose - paint its original identification. It could be done in such a way that it does not detract from whatever they do, but would still provide the info for future reference.

[Otto Vondrak]

Aw come on, you can't convince them to make it back into 95069 again? Use your influence! Threaten them with an angry web site full of LV partisans demanding an historically accurate renumbering!

Heck, if we're going to paint it LV 95069 again, I'm also going to suggest sale to a certain railroad museum in Rochester get it to be pulled around a certain high-hood RS-3. I know you're sorta joking, but I support painting equipment in its original colors and numbers- unless, of course, you are up front about your repainting, like how Danbury has their ex-GMRC RS-1 painted as New Haven, but its numbered one higher than the last real NH RS-1, so as not to confuse. I have no idea how our caboose got to be the "second" 95041, I'll have to ask around. The paint was so weathered, I had assumed that it had come to us as LV (but then realized that would be highly unlikely). The caboose will be painted and lettered for CMRR, and serve as a gift shop at Mount Pleasant.

I will, however, make sure our CMRR records indicate the correct road number. I will also suggest that we restore the road number somewhere on the body, as was the curious Conrail practice with their repaints. I'm also working on a CMRR roster to be posted to the website soon.

-otto-

[lvrr325]

I used to have a copy of a memo issued to the various Conrail shops in 1976 noting renumbering and painting for all system cabooses - which ones were to be renumbered, which ones were to be retired when due for shopping, etc. It noted that they weren't to be renumbered in consecutive order, although it did direct that the cabooses the LV sold to the PC get numbered into the same series and class. It's entirely possible the CMR caboose got the wrong former number stencilled on when it was painted blue. If the two cars were painted the same day at the same shop... or if when it was painted they didn't keep track of the old number...

Then again, 95041 is also one of the numbers the old Herald King LV caboose decal set gives you. There's one with that number on my dad's layout right now, painted from a Life-Like caboose. If the guys who painted it at CMR used a set of those decals as a source for the lettering information... there you go.

[eehiv]

Gentlemen,

Just to add to the confusion, tonight I called George Peck, VP of the CMRR, who was one of the group who went to Reading and picked out the CMRR's caboose in the 1980's. He said that they found the number "95041" on the underframe of the caboose, and that is why they painted the car that number. He said that it was pretty faded, but was readable.

The number has since been covered by subsequent paintings. He said the CMRR's caboose has Pennsy trucks which were not original. Ours also does NOT have the porthole windows found on some of these cabooses.

Ernie Hunt
Volunteer Coordinator
CMRR

[scottychaos]

wow..mystery not solved afterall!

yes, its possible Conrail messed it up somehow..

unfortunately both cabooses claiming to be 95041 are phase 1, and should both have one square window on the end and cast steps..and they both do.
so something obvious like porthole windows doesnt help in this case.

I dont know what else we can go on now!
except photos in LV service..(we can be sure LV didnt have the numbers wrong!
then try to match LV photos to the existing cabs, looking for minor differences..

the real 95069 was from the first batch of LV cabs, Phase 1 Batch 1, 1937.
and the real 95041 was Phase 1 Batch 6, 1944.

so perhaps there were some obvious structural differences between 1937 and 1944?

Builder Data info, from Railroad Model Craftsman, August 1982.
Individual Data: Lehigh Valley Cabooses

Phase I Built
Lot 1 95050-95069 7/28/37-12/24/37
Lot 2 95070-95079 6/10/39-7/8/39
Lot 3 95080-95103 4/30/40-3/31/41
Lot 4 95001-95014 5/10/41-8/23/41
Lot 5 95015-95026 5/28/42-8/18/42
Lot 6 95027-95041 4/24/44-

95 Cars: Cushion underframe, right end window, flush roof/end walks, cast steps.
exceptions:
Fabrcated steps: 95014, 95017, 95019, 95022-95026, 95059
Added Left end window: 95004, 95007, 95036, 95037, 95038, 95050, 95055,
95056, 95059, 95064, 95065, 95073, 95075, 95077, 95084, 95090, 95092
Solid underframe: 95051

Phase II
Lot 6 95042-95049 -6/30/45
Lot 7 95104-95125 7/24/45-11/31/45
Lot 8 95126-95140 3/29/46-5/31/46

45 Cars: Solid underframe, dual porthole windows, raised roof/end walks, cast steps.

http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychao ... umber.html

Scot

[ricebrianrice]

Gut feeling:
Some Conrail pencil pusher, screwed up.
What did he care what the LV number was, his job was to renumber the caboose fleet, and he couldn't give a rats !@#$% about the history of each caboose!

Brian

[Drawhead]

If the caboose in question at CMRR is to be repainted at some point i would suggest doing a little light sanding above the doors to "find out exactly" what cab number it really is.The original LV number was painted there.I've also seen some LV caboose photo's where the number was painted above the small square window to the right of the door.On my LV caboose i first sanded off the Conrail number 18628 above one of the doors.Under the blue paint the red paint slowly appeared with the number 95026 in fairly large yellow numbers.Under those numbers were also a slightly smaller set of 95026 numbers.As BR&P mentioned Conrail painted LV cabs had the LV and number painted to the upper right side of the caboose body just under the roof line.Mine did as all the other LV cabs at Renova did when i bought mine.I have looked everywhere inside and outside along with under the frame extensively for any LV numbers stamped or painted anywhere and have found NONE.I have also looked at a handfull of other LV cabs and never saw any number underneath.As for trucks i have seen a few LV cabs with LV RR marked in the casting of the side frames but never the actual cab number on the trucks.I've also seen several that had other trucks on them that had been swapped out.My cab unfortunately does not have it's original LVRR trucks and has mismatched ones.One set is a PRR marked truck that did have its former Conrail caboose number from a N5C cab painted on the center of the truck.Other than doing a little sanding where the original LV numbers were once painted there's probably know way to know for sure!

[BR&P]

Which raises another question: *IF* the one at CMRR is 95041, what became of 95069?

Hopefully CMRR will follow Fritz's suggestion and do a little sanding - should we chip in and buy them a quart of paint for the touch-up afterward?

[Drawhead]

What about the supposed real 95041 ex CR 18617 East Penn that's at Pennsburg Pa.? Could that one also have had the wrong number painted on it ? In Otto's photo of CR 18616 at CMRR look at the door.This may be something to maybe give a clue? or something to look for on photo's of the two cabs in question if no one want's to do some sanding.The end door on CMRR 18616 has a single porthole window in it.Most of the original doors on the LV cabs were wood panel type with two upper glass panes, see attached photo of 95007 wich still had it's original door then.I think by the time most LV cabs were aquirred by Conrail and perhaps some even before,the doors were changed out as most i've seen have the metal skin covered doors with Lexon/thick plexiglass type windows that will slide up and down with a outside hinged screen,but some older photo's from the 70's even in LV paint appear to have those doors.I do remember seeing one or two at Renova that had doors with a single porthole window.Could the LV have used these porthole window doors to go and match with the porthole end windows of the Phase 2 cabs and maybe had some left over that they used on other cabs? Or were these porthole window doors strictly another replacement type door used in the Conrail era? I've got a photo of the real 95041 in the red with yellow band on the side but unfortunately i can't see the door.I don't have any photo's of the 95069. I don't know what else you could look for to distinguish any other differences? When Conrail got the cabs they torched off all cupola roof grab irons,ladder tops at the roofline,lower ladder grab irons on the outside of the metal end panels,the overhanging roof walks were also torched off evenly at the roof line and a horizontal grab iron was installed across the ends.And as Scott mentioned you can rule out the fabricated steps because neither 96041 or 95069 had them or the round porthole end windows of the Phase 2 cabs.Your best bet is to get out the sandpaper!

[Otto Vondrak]

Oh noes, what have I started?

[eehiv]

here is one photo of the 95041:



Although you are viewing the wrong end, you can see through the windows and see a rectangular door on the other end. Of course the porthole door could have been put in after 1960.

EH