Is Independent Cement Alco RS3 #5 LVRR 219??

[scottychaos]

Hey guys, check this out!

http://www.railpictures.net/forums/show ... #post36450

Independent Cement Alco RS3 #5 has been in Cementon, NY for many years..I have her listed on the NY Alco page, but with no heritage information.

LVRR Alco RS3 219 is listed on the LV survivors page as "disposition unknown"
LV 219 also has the following data:

LV 219 - CR 5491 - Set aside 31 July 1978, retired 24 Jan 1979. Ex-Tennessee Central 251, exx-Precision Engineering 251. Aquired by the LVRR 19 Jan 1972. Rebuilt as a RS3m and renumbered 9917 as of 08 Sept 1979. Final disposition unkown.

Notice: Ex-Tennessee Central 251, exx-Precision Engineering 251.

Independent Cement #5 has the number 251 in it's numberboards!
but its not clear to me if LV 219 was TC and PE 251 *before* it was bought by the LV, or *after* it was retired by Conrail..
if it was before LV, then it seems unlikely it would still be wearing the number 251..but if post-Conrail then 251 would make perfect sense.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos ... tives.html

Current Pics of #5:

http://www.railpictures.net/forums/show ... #post36448

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=179619

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=143017

Im going to dig up pics of LV 219 and CR 5491 and CR 9917 and compare them to the current #5..

we might have another LV RS3 survivor on our hands!
the odds are looking very good.

Scot

[scottychaos]

hmmm..
here is a page:

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco_RS3.HTML

that says Tenesee Central #251 was bought new by TC in 1950.
which means she was #251 BEFORE LV and Conrail..
which wouldnt be a logical connection for this unit having 251 in its numberboards today..unless an owner after Conrail knew its heritage and decieded to number it 251 because thats was its original number.

Or the 251 could be a coincidence, and this unit might not be LV 219 at all..but that would be a big coincidence!

googling continues....

Scot

[scottychaos]

"251" is also an Alco diesel engine type. (the "prime mover" engine)
not sure if RS3's had 251 engines in them or not..

I have never heard of anyone numbering a locmotive based on the engine it has inside it, but stranger things have happened.
just something else to keep in mind about this unit.

LV 291 was rebuilt into a RS3m by conrail, so it wouldnt have it original engine anyway..maybe..I dont much about prime movers!

Scot

[scottychaos]

Pics of LV 219

http://www.sd45.com/lehighvalley/images/lv219.jpg

http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos/alco/rs3/lv219er.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/lv/lv219f.jpg

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=495562

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=283111



Alco RS3 LV 219
Last known as CR RS3m 9917 (reblt by CR 1979)
CR 5491 (1976)
LV 219 - (to LV 01/19/1972)
Precision Engenerring 251 (?)
nee Tennesee Central 251 (built new for TC 1950)

there is also an Alco serial # 78362 listed for 219

Im not sure all that info is correct..I will check rosters when I get home tonight.

Scot

[Alcoman]

Here is the correct history of the above Alco:

5 RS-3 (78251 9/50) Ex-Alpha Portland Cement, Nee-Birmingham Southern # 251

Currently Privately owned-Leased to Independent Cement.

[scottychaos]

Here is the correct history of the above Alco:

5 RS-3 (78251 9/50) Ex-Alpha Portland Cement, Nee-Birmingham Southern # 251

Currently Privately owned-Leased to Independent Cement.

hmmm..are you sure?
whats the source?
This RS3 roster only lists one RS3 as originally belonging to the Birmingham Southern:

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco_RS3.HTML

and its Birmingham Southern #152, not 251.

no references to a BS 251 on-line, but I cant seem to find a complete BS roster, so there could have been a BS 251..

#5 does *not* appear to have that trademark square roof design of Conrail RS3m rebuilds..and it seems to have the original stack.
which is evidence *against* the LV theory, since we know LV219 was rebuilt into a CR RS3m.
although I did find one pic of a unit wearing a RS3m number that appears to not have that modification:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... x?id=70105

and the owner of #5 said he thinks it has possible LV and "tennesee" heritage...although it appears he isnt 100% certain of the units heritage.

But #5 is currently sporting a "251" in it's numberboard..which supports the Birminghamon Southern theory better than the LV theory, since the 251 in the numberboard implys the unit was numbured 251 before it became #5.

so im still not convinced either way!
need more data..

Scot

[scottychaos]

Where else would a RS3 have its serial number besides the builder's plates? anywhere else? on the frame anywhere? not sure if #5 still has its plates.

LV 219 is reported to be Alco serial # 78362

Birmingham Southern 152 (not 251)
is reported to be serial # 79096

Tennessee Central 251-254 are reported to be serial # 78362-78365.
That matches TC 251 with LV 219, same serial # 78362.

serial numbers from:

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco_RS3.HTML
and
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPi ... x?id=54960

Now the serial numbers totally support the LV theory!
this is fun!
now we just need to find a serial number on the actual #5!
that would clinch it..

Scot

[Alcoman]

Scot,
Doing some further research indicates that the number is 151,not 152 or 251,however it could have been renumbered somewhere along then line.
It was bought new from Alco according to Builders records I have..
While I have not found a complete roster yet-, I did find out that this railroad owned at least 1 HH660 # 88. So the number of 151 for the RS-3 sounds more likely.
I will check Extra 2200 South and see if I can dig more info there,

[Alcoman]

It turns out that the BS had several RS's on the roster. Extra 2200 South shows that this locomotive is an RS-2 (not 3) and is number 151.
The only guess on the (251) is that it was resold and re#ed before becoming # 5.

[scottychaos]

It turns out that the BS had several RS's on the roster. Extra 2200 South shows that this locomotive is an RS-2 (not 3) and is number 151.
The only guess on the (251) is that it was resold and re#ed before becoming # 5.

interesting!
thanks John.

data somewhere is messed up though..
because Independent Cement #5 is clearly a RS3, not a RS2, based on the battery boxes..

Im thinking that Birmingham Southern info must be wrong as it relates to #5..

From what I can tell looking at photos of LV 219 compared to #5,
I cant see any obvious differences so far that would rule-out it being LV 219.

Scot

[Alcoman]

The RS-2 could have been upgraded to RS-3 standards. The real clue to whether it is an RS-2 or not is in the engine room. The RS-2 has belt driven auxrillies. The RS-3 is gear driven.
BTW, the number 251 almost sounds like it was picked based on its serial number: (87251)

[scottychaos]

Wow! lots of info here!

I will try to summarize it all:


Independent Cement #5
Fact - this unit exists and is operational in Cementon/Alsen NY (Hudson Valley)
Fact - this unit is currently #5 but also has #251 in its numberboards.
speculation but 99.9% likely - 251 was its previous number.
speculation but very likely - this unit is an Alco RS3.
speculation - could have originally been an RS2, and was upgraded.
speculation - "there are rumors it was connected to Lehigh Valley RR, Birmingham Rail Co and also seen in the Nashville Tenn. area." according to the units owner.
unknown - this units actual history and serial number.

There are two current contenders for this unit's heritage.

Lehigh Valley Alco RS3 219
Facts - 219's history:
Built October 1950 as Tennessee Central 251.
"sold with part of TC to IC, but soon resold to PNC"
then to LV in 12/71 - 1/72, became LV 219.
Became Conrail 5941 on 4/1/76
Set aside 31 July 1978, retired 24 Jan 1979.
Rebuilt as a RS3m and renumbered CR 9917 as of 08 Sept 1979.
Final disposition currently unknown.
Alco serial # 78362
(that serial number matches both TC 251 and LV 219 from various sources)

above info on LV 219 from:
Extra 220 South, issue 76, July/Aug/Sept 1982.
Lehigh Valley Railroad, The New York Division, by Mike Bednar.
(except for the dewitt geep info)
source for dewitt geep info:
http://www.altoonaworks.info/rebuilds/cr_rs-3m.html


contender #2:
Birmingham Southern RS2 151
Fact - Alco serial # 87251
Extra 220 south links this unit to Independent Cement #5


Its interesting that both units have 251 somewhere in their makeup!
LV 219 was originally TC 251.
and BS 151 was serial # 87251

but LV 219 was #251 LONG before it became "cement #5"
and was LV and CR inbetween.
so it couldnt have been wearing its original #251 after Conrail.
speculation - the unit was numbured 251 sometime after Conrail in honor of its original, as-built number.

speculation - if #5 is actually Birmingham Southern RS2 151,
the only connection to the number 251 is its serial number.
speculation - Cement #5 wore #251 based on its serial number.

Unknown - Independent Cement #5's Alco serial number.
trying to find out!

Its also possible Cement #5 is neither of these engines!

but right now leaning toward the LV 219 theory, it has better odds than Birmingham Southern RS2 151..
(which was a RS2..the theory's biggest problem)

Scot

[traingeek8223]

OK lets straighten a few things out here. Independence Cement #5 is not LV 219. First of all #5 is a Phase III RS3 with vertical carbody filters. It is a late model. LV 219 was a Phase I carbody which was an earlier version. #5 also has Birmingham Southern spoting features such as: mars lights, bell mounted near the radiator, small fuel tank and friction bering trucks.

Second, #5 was not an RS2. As Alcoman said, an RS2 has belt driven aux. but also an RS2 has a narrower short hood, which is clearly visible to the trained eye(Lake State 469 is a good example).

Finally, LV 219 was rebuilt by Conrail with an EMD 567 prime mover, and I know for a fact that the 5 still has an Alco 244 under the hood(the thick smoke is also a clue)

Hope this helps.

[scottychaos]

thanks MG!
those are excellent points.

I agree the LV theory has some problems..
but the Birmingham Southern theory has problems as well.

Alcoman says that Extra 220 south says that Birmingham Southern RS2 151 is supposed to #5..well that makes little sense, since BS 151 was a RS2.

thats why im doubting the Birminghalm Southern theory..
because clearly #5 isnt a RS2!
so that pretty much kills the BS theory right there..(at least for the BS unit that extra 220 south claims became #5)
its totally possible that #5 is a different Birmingham Southern unit!
perhaps a Birmingham Southern "Phase III RS3 with vertical carbody filters"!

the owner of this unit said he heard "maybe LV heritage"..
so based on that, I made the possible connection to LV 219, since 219's fate is still unknown, and 219 was originally #251, which fits the #251 in #5's numberboards..
its very possible the 251 is pure coincidence! but its an interesting enough coincidence to at least consider the possibility.

obviously there is a ton of conflicting info about this unit out there..
thats the point of this thread..to gather all the info together and try to determine the truth.

your points about the carbody add valuable data to the discussion, and lower the odds for LV 219!
but thats fine! thats how a mystery like this gets solved.

thanks,
Scot

[metman499]

The RS-3 book by one of the Plants states the unit is off the Birmingham Southern. It may or may not have the number. Unfortunately, my copy is several hundred miles away right now.