Restoration of CNJ "Blue Comet" route to AC?

[Irish Chieftain]

With all due respect, so what? None of its route is on former rails that the CNJ owned.

[NJrailfan]

I`ve offten wondered about this line with all the talk about this new "aces" service. It would certainly be alot more direct then running trains tru shore interlocking in north philly, but the tracks would need an extreem amount of restoration.

[south jersey trains]

On the Restoration of the CNJ Blue Comet Line there is an article about New Jersey Transit in the Atlantic City Press restoring the line.A discision will be made at the end of the year.It is posted in the New Jersey railroad section under Blue Comet to Atlantic City Line.

[firthorfifth06]

but in terms of the service restoration, I think NJT is most likely for the fastest way to get to AC, not the most direct. I forget who on the NJT board said it, but, think of it like this. So you're tooling along at track speed, then you hit Union interlocking, so you have to slow down for the merge onto the coast line. Then, you can do up to a max of 60 on the coast line (?). Slow down again to cross RIVER and MORGAN and then at Southern Yard. Then, you can do maybe 70-80 on a restored Southern Secondary. But alas, you'll have to slow down again at Winslow Jct., just to get up to the ACL and do 70 again, not counting any times for stop signals. It would mostl likely take a good 3-4 hours just to get to AC.

Going via SHORE, the trip is cut to a more reasonable 2.5 to 3 hours

[Jtgshu]

but in terms of the service restoration, I think NJT is most likely for the fastest way to get to AC, not the most direct. I forget who on the NJT board said it, but, think of it like this. So you're tooling along at track speed, then you hit Union interlocking, so you have to slow down for the merge onto the coast line. Then, you can do up to a max of 60 on the coast line (?). Slow down again to cross RIVER and MORGAN and then at Southern Yard. Then, you can do maybe 70-80 on a restored Southern Secondary. But alas, you'll have to slow down again at Winslow Jct., just to get up to the ACL and do 70 again, not counting any times for stop signals. It would mostl likely take a good 3-4 hours just to get to AC.

Going via SHORE, the trip is cut to a more reasonable 2.5 to 3 hours

That was me (several times, I might add) on one of the various NY-AC service threads on both the NJT and NJ Railfan boards.

While its strange to think that going into PA is actually faster, which it is, but some folks simply don't want to think that, and insist that the Blue Comet route would be faster.

[PullmanCo]

but in terms of the service restoration, I think NJT is most likely for the fastest way to get to AC, not the most direct. I forget who on the NJT board said it, but, think of it like this. So you're tooling along at track speed, then you hit Union interlocking, so you have to slow down for the merge onto the coast line. Then, you can do up to a max of 60 on the coast line (?). Slow down again to cross RIVER and MORGAN and then at Southern Yard. Then, you can do maybe 70-80 on a restored Southern Secondary. But alas, you'll have to slow down again at Winslow Jct., just to get up to the ACL and do 70 again, not counting any times for stop signals. It would mostl likely take a good 3-4 hours just to get to AC.

Going via SHORE, the trip is cut to a more reasonable 2.5 to 3 hours

You have the top speeds on the ACL and NJCL wrong. Track speed on the NJCL east (north) of Long Branch is 80 mph, not 60 (it's 60 from Long Branch to Bay Head). Also, track speed on the ACL is 80 mph (down from the 90 mph that Amtrak operated at; yes, the Atlantic City service that they used to operate and that NJT is being induced to duplicate). Furthermore, you'd be continuously moving on the former Southern Division, versus coming to a dead stop (for how long?) and reversing at Shore (and the speed across the Delair Bridge and through Pennsauken is not that fast, perhaps 50 mph max, slower on the bridge, which still is awaiting repairs). As for stop signals, the ACES train via the former Amtrak route would get stopped at them too, if they have to encounter them.

While its strange to think that going into PA is actually faster, which it is, but some folks simply don't want to think that, and insist that the Blue Comet route would be faster

It would be. It'd have the entire route to itself, without having to dance around Amtrak.

[Jtgshu]

The speeds on the Coast Line are a little more complicated than just 80mph east of Long Branch and 60mph west....I wish it was that cut and dry!

Its 75 from Graw to Wood, 60 from Wood to Morgan, 70 from Morgan to Lloyd, 80 from Lloyd to Branchport.

Within those speed groups, there are other slow downs - 30 from Union to Graw (currently 15mph through Eastbound Hole) 35 over River, 30 through South Amboy to Rare, 45 over Morgan, 45 on Matawan Curve, 70 on Centerville Curve, 50 over Navesink River Bridge. Currently, the best you can do is 15mph diverting at Red Bank into Southern Yard or the Southern Secondary.

As for speeds on teh AC Line, in a nutshell its 30mph from Shore to Delair. Then its 45mph from Westfield Ave Xing to MP3, then its up to 80mph to the haddonfield cut (30mph) and the curve North of it (45). The 80mph is on the main, not the siding, where Cherry Hill Station is (thats another slow part of the trip that wouldn't be expereiced by the ACES train). From south of the Haddonfield Cut, the max speed is 80mph, mostly with 60 or 65mph restrictions through the towns.

Tangling up with Amtrak isn't gonna be that big of an issue, because the train doesn't make any stops (besides Newark) so chances are it would follow an Acela or a Regional/Long Distance train meaning that it would have good railroad the entire way.

On the Coast Line (getting to the "Blue Comet route"), the ACES trains would be tangling with Coast Line trains....it WOULD NOT have the route "all to itself". So what is the differnce? In reality, the NEC would be more flexible becuase of more tracks and interlockings to run around locals. On the Coast LIne, there is very little reverse running (using both tracks in 1 direction) because of the service in the opposite direction. Its very rare and very hard to do on the Coast Line . If an interlocking was installed around Laural Phase Gap (where Lily hand cross over used to be...), that would help, but still, its only 2 tracks, which are pretty close to capacity.

How many times I can spell this out?....these speeds are a given, and chances are, aren't going to be changed, just for ACES. The Blue Comet route south of Lakehurst would be a very quick ride. However, GETTING to that point is what is going to take the most time, not to mention swinging up to the ACL at Winslow Jct, while the Shore routed ACES train flys by at 70mph (its a 70mph curve there at Winslow Jct)

How do I know? I know because I have done it....I know how long it takes to get to Red Bank, and I know how long it takes to get to Shore, and I know how long it takes to get from Shore to AC. I have actually physically moved a train from point A to point B, running at Track Speed. Wanna consider that an expert opinion? Its up to you, but all I can say is this is how it is.

Its actually funny how many times we have gone over this. And each time, Ill continue to present facts instead of just "because it would be"

[PullmanCo]

On the Coast Line (getting to the "Blue Comet route"), the ACES trains would be tangling with Coast Line trains....it WOULD NOT have the route "all to itself"

That's about 26 to 27 miles, and at the time of day the ACES is supposed to run, the number of TPH is 2 to 3 (in one direction). I don't see a two-track route involves that much entanglement (especially judging by the TPH on the High Line at any given time of day). From Red Bank to Winslow, the train would have at least 75 miles of track to itself. (Assuming MOM wasn't already operating, that is.) If the estimate of 140 miles for the CNJ route is correct, then that's over half the route.

BTW, checking the "acestrain" schedule on their website, the slowest average speed looks like about 55 mph and the fastest 59 mph.

[Jtgshu]

the printed running times on the ACES train are going to be longer than reality - of course, there is going to be a lot of fluff in the time in getting to Atlantic City. Its going to be slower goings on the AC Line because of meets with scheduled ACL trains, and of course, the extra time to change ends at Shore and waiting for a window to open up, but that isn't going to be THAT long.

Pullman, I dunno, I guess I just can't convince ya, and thats fine. We of course are all entitled to our own opinions.

But the numbers just don't add up - the quickest route WILL be via Shore. The only slow down on the NEC would be the Elizabeth S curves and Metuchen Curves and the curves by Torresdale Station. the Frankfort S curve isn't much of an issue becuase the train will be slowing down for diverting at Shore. Other than those locations, the train will not have to slow down much below 100mph the entire distance, if its running on the inner tracks, which it would be, because i SERIOUSLY doubt they would run it behind a local on 4 or 1 track.

Even if the mileage was significanlty longer on the NEC, the higher speeds would allow for shorter running times. The Coast Line trains are slow. VERY slow. ESPECIALLY express trains diverting at Union, becuase they get knocked down by the cab signal system around Linden Station. Ask anyone who has ever ridden an Coast Line "express" train how slow they are. However, you can't compare the trains per hour on the 2 track High Line with the Coast Line. The High Density Signal system (562 signals) on the High Line allows for MANY more trains per hour than the Coast Line with its "regular" signal system.

Once again, the amount of time it would take to be at Shore interlocking from NY, is about the same amount of time it would take to get to Red Bank from NY. In that case, you got about 62 or so miles to get to AC from Shore, while you got about 60 miles to get from Red Bank to Winslow Jct, then 30 or so miles to get from Winslow Jct to AC, with those last 30 or so miles on the same track the Shore routing would have.

So It would take a shorter amount of time to go 60 miles to Winslow then 30 miles to AC, than it would to change ends, wait for a window and head 62 miles to Atlantic City from Shore (again,with those last 30 miles shared with both routes)?

Im sorry, but I don't think so.

[PullmanCo]

the printed running times on the ACES train are going to be longer than reality

That'll be a first for NJT. With all due respect. Especially with such a big chunk of running on someone else's territory.

The only slow down on the NEC would be the Elizabeth S curves and Metuchen Curves and the curves by Torresdale Station

There are curves by Bristol too, and by Van Sciver Lake in Wheatsheaf, as well as the ones where the Trenton Cutoff diverges.

The High Density Signal system (562 signals) on the High Line allows for MANY more trains per hour than the Coast Line with its "regular" signal system

I know that, but at the times the ACES runs, density is not particularly heavy. It's no Lehigh Line, whose signaling is similar IINM but train density is greater.

Once again, the amount of time it would take to be at Shore interlocking from NY, is about the same amount of time it would take to get to Red Bank from NY

Unless things have gone drastically wrong, it doesn't take 1½ to 2 hours to get from New York to Red Bank (locals after 8 pm are timetabled for 1 hour 20 minutes, with stops at Secaucus, Airport, North Elizabeth and Avenel included), and unless the measurements of the map are wrong, the ACES is going to have to run at a way faster average speed than Acela currently runs, between Newark Penn and Shore (way faster than 90 mph average speed to make up for the average speed between NYP and NWK, and this is from New York to Shore), to get there in an hour. As for NJCL "expresses", for the most part, they run local from Perth Amboy outwards, and most stop at Woodbridge, so they are not quite "express" in nature.

And BTW, the onus has been on me to convince you, so don't feel bad.

[Jtgshu]

Where did I say it would take 1.5 to 2 hours to get from Red Bank to NY?

I was talking about non-stop, New York/Newark to Red Bank - Just like non-stop, NY/Newark to Shore. While I haven't done a NY to Shore run non stop I have done a Newark Penn to Shore run non-stop (and on into 30th St.). I don't care about what the average speed of the Acela is. All I know is what is possible, and thats all ive been trying to show. I know what is possible, I have done it. With a GEEP (which takes a good 4-5 miles in notch 8 to get up to 100mph). If you wanna believe me or not, thats fine, but I know what I have done and how long it took me to get from Newark to Shore, (exactly 1 hour and 2 minutes, and that was with a few slow signals inbetween Hunter and Union) Now Newark Penn is MP 8.8, Shore is MP 82.1. Give me an ALP and clear signals, it can be done in under an hour. Heck, give me a Geep and clear signals the whole way and it can be done in an hour.

As for the speeds in PA, for type "C" trains, (which is what NJT trains are, and what im assuming the ACES trains will be).....

Inbetween Morris and Holmes - 100 (1) 110 (2) 110 (3) 100 (4)
Morris interlocking - 100mph (2 and 3)
First curve west of Morris - 100 (3)
Curve west of Croyden 105mph (2 and 3)
Curves at MP 74 and 75 - 80 (1), 90 (2) 90 (3), 80 (4)

Then from Holmes to Shore - 90 (1) 100 (2) 100 (3) 90 (4)
then there is a 90 at Wissnoming on 2 and 3,
then the 60 then 50 at Frankfort on all tracks, then Shore on the other side of the curve.

I know what the Coast Line "expresses" do - My point isn't which stops they make, its the "express" part of it. Its a VERY slow ride on the NEC diverting at Union. VERY slow. Unless you have ridden one, you can't understand how slow it actaully is......

The Blue Comet didn't run this way, they had a relatively straight run down the current Chemical Coast and landed right in the then center tracks at current day Wood, and through Perth Amboy. There would SIGNIFICANT time savings there as well While im sure the diverting route at Eport was slow in nature, it HAD to have been faster than the current diversion at Union.

Sorry Pullman, your not gonna convince me. Not now, not ever. Unless somehow the Southern Secondary is rebuilt for like 150mph running, its NOT going to be faster.

[Kaback9]

Jt is right there is no way the "Blue Comet" route is any faster.