UH60L wrote:Ok, so when you say "not quite" are you implying that the Geere line never connected to the SP line? If that is the case, I have pictures to prove it if need be.
That's not what I said. Your comment was:
UH60L wrote:Thus, the Geere line does, or did, serve something. Could have been great, now we'll never know.
to which I replied
wigwagfan wrote:Not quite...
and then elaborated on what the Geer Branch (Geer: named after Oregon's 10th Governor,
Theodore Thurston Geer) served - specifically, the state prison, and not much else.
I'm well aware of the junction with the Geer Branch with the SP Valley Main right across from the current Amtrak station; in fact I even stated as much in my last post:
wigwagfan wrote:The Geer Branch did end right at the Salem depot
UH60L wrote:Also, I did not mention running amtrak on the Geere line. I was thinking more like a commuter, rdc, MAX type line, and we're talking the future, thus after neede improvments had been made, to include "straitenning a few curves" as the Dukes of Hazzard would say.
Likewise:
wigwagfan wrote:Now...a DMU type operation from Woodburn to Mt. Angel to Silverton and possibly returning to Salem via the Geer Branch is interesting
However the population density just doesn't support running a "MAX type line" - light rail. There's a reason that MAX doesn't serve Troutdale, Forest Grove, Cornelius, Tualatin, Wilsonville, Oregon City, etc. There IS a reason that MAX connects Gresham, Beaverton and Hillsboro (all cities with populations over 90,000, and Gresham is over 100,000) and Portland (population nearly 600,000). And there is a reason the next big push is to Vancouver (population 162,400).
Keep in mind: WES is less than 15 miles long (14.7 to be exact) and cost $160M to build, in a relatively dense area. That's $10.8 million per mile. Can you imagine Stayton coming up with that kind of money? Especially when the city's total 2008 budget was only $8M, and the city's transportation budget was only $1.5 million? And Aumsville's budget is even smaller. I can't expect Salem to cover the majority of costs, nor would Marion County (which is one of the largest recipients of state donor dollars...Marion County isn't going to pay for anything that the State doesn't give it first.) And if you took the money away from Portland area projects, you can bet that you'll hear a lot of "trains to nowhere" arguments.
UH60L wrote:The fact is, once the ROW is gone, it usually doesn't come back. (at least not in Oregon, from what I'm told) The Geere line ROW is now driveways, parking lots, included in teh state motorpool grounds etc. The SESNA, South East Salem Neighborhood Association pushed and pushed until finally the state and city removed the last remaining tracks from the east west end of the line over by 17th st. I have pictures of what was left about 8 or 9 years ago.
So do I, I have taken quite a few photographs over the last few years as bits and pieces of trackage remained until it was finally ripped up. But just because a railroad once existed, doesn't justify its continued existence. The fact is that the Southern Pacific had no use for it and embargoed it. A shortline - the supposed savior of low-density railroad lines - took over, and after a few years had no use for it. There were no shippers on the line to cover the basic costs. As a commuter rail line, even if you just used the trackage within Salem alone as a trolley track (i.e. similar to the Seattle Waterfront Trolley, or the Astoria Trolley, or the Willamette Shores Trolley) you do not have sufficient ridership potential. And let's face it, the neighborhoods the line passes through aren't exactly pleasant, nor are there any destinations along the line (major employment centers, major housing centers). Except, of course, the prison.
As for "the motor pool", the
State Motor Pool lot is on Airport Road SE and Ryan Drive. The Geer Branch was located a full half mile north of the Motor Pool lot. You might be referring to the
Department of Forestry facility just off of State Street. However, if push came to shove - we're only talking about 24 - yes, 24 - parking spaces that would have to be removed. I'm sure room could be found on the north side of State Street (the DOC property).
In fact, there is exactly ONE structure that is more-or-less permanent that was built on the ROW - an office building located at 17th & Oak Streets SE. Beyond that, the ROW is accessible. (Parking lots and baseball fields can be easily removed.) That, and the aforementioned I-5 berm (and that is not as difficult as an obstacle as it appears.) So I wouldn't say the ROW is gone forever - at least not now. The question is - is it needed? As the push is for dense urban communities rather than bedroom communities, does it make more sense to invest in projects that only facilitate more sprawl to smaller outlying communities - especially communities which are not very large right now?
UH60L wrote:If a rail commuter system has any chance in the future in Salem, they will have to bulldoze some land/homes/businesses etc, to make a right of way, otherwise it won't serve anything the the outside eddges of the city. I have no doubt that amtrak will never run on the geere line. But a commuter system culd have been built on that ROW. Now, not so much.
Not at all. I've advocated for commuter rail between Salem and Portland, using the UP Valley Main for many years. I still think it's a good idea. It uses existing, passenger-ready rails. It uses existing stations. And it connects Portland with Salem - two cities where there is demonstrated commuter traffic, in high volumes (80,000 ADT on I-5 between Wilsonville and Salem), and in a market not reasonably served with public transit (aside from the paltry SMART/Cherriots 1X bus, which only runs from Salem to Wilsonville and provides luckluster connections to Portland.) Such a system, using the UP Valley Main, would have the downtown station (the current Amtrak station), plus possible stations at the Fairgrounds and another one possibly located on the Chemawa Indian School grounds (a park-and-ride facility mostly geared towards North Salem and Keizer residents). And possibly a South Salem facility located north of Kuebler Boulevard, where 32nd Avenue dead-ends - and just off of I-5. Running right through the central core of Salem is hardly "outlying" especially when the current Amtrak station is virtually in the geographic center of the Salem/Keizer area.
Further I've never advocated for Amtrak on the branches. In fact, in reviewing my thread that you commented on, the word "Amtrak" appears exactly ZERO times, but I mentioned a DMU type operation which would likely be a local transit agency.