NorthWest wrote:Strange that the units weren't set up to MUI thikn it would be fair to say that in Europe generally trains are not long enough and heavy enough to routinely need more than one locomotive, although obviously there are some exceptions. Having said that, I think most European rail systems do have the facility.
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Note also that fewer trains in Europe use a separate locomotive, whether electric or diesel. The US has not developed multiple units with the same enthusiasm as in Europe. And I note that on the Southern system there are hourly occasions when three different multiple units join together at Haywards Heath to form one train into London; and are separated on the outward journey to Brighton, Folkestone and Portsmouth. There is presumably a drivers' depot at Haywards Heath.
johnthefireman wrote:I think it would be fair to say that in Europe generally trains are not long enough and heavy enough to routinely need more than one locomotive, although obviously there are some exceptions. Having said that, I think most European rail systems do have the facility.Full agreement. Many other European locomotives had MU (although unfortunately rarely universal, it was often by builder but frequently only in-type). The reason here is political and not operational or technical. The fact that the unions successfully fought MU indicates that there were at least some services where two locomotives were used with some regularity.
It is unfortunate to the locomotive enthusiast that the longer trains are being converted to multiple units, but they've been around forever in the form of Fiat railcars in Italy.
Benny wrote: The so-called "low signals" or "marmots" are used to control movements inside a station or a yard. In Italy trains run left hand and consequently signals are on the left.Thank you for the information which I wasn't aware of, Benny. I had to Google "marmot" and I got the picture below with this caption:
Ciao
"At the left are shown low or shunting signals. They are called "marmots" because of the movements of the early mechanical low signals. The lamp remained in a fixed position inside the enclosure with purple and lunar white lenses while the enclosure rotated as it was moved upwards and downwards (normally by an hydraulic piston). The enclosure would rise and rotate, like a marmot coming out of its burrow to look around. Later electrically-operated signals and the light signals illustrated did not retain the up-and-down motion, but were still called marmots. If the two lights arranged vertically are blinking, the permission to proceed applies only to trains governed by other signals, such as a departure signal governing several tracks, not to shunting movements. If the signal pertains to the track to its left, an arrow is displayed to indicate this. Otherwise, a low signal applies to the track to its right."
For those so inclined, here is more Wiki information on Italian railways and signals. They strike me as being a bit complex, but I suppose any large railway's sigal system can seem complex The candlelabra group of signals below illustrates that. http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/rail/ital.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_r ... signalling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here's the caption for the signal below:
"Station protection signals and station departure signals can be multiple or '’candelabra’'; they can comprise several lights on a number of separate arms for support.
Multiple home signal signals consist of several primary signals grouped together. The order of the signals from left to right, is the same as the routes or groups of routes they control. The uppermost light commands a route without speed restrictions, those placed below control routes with a speed limit after the next set of points depending on the presence of a warning aspect or a reminder signal placed under the signal. In the absence of any indication, the maximum speed is 30 km/h.
Where the lights are all at the same level they will be regarded as lower level and imply speed limits on all routes they controlled."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_r ... signalling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here's the caption for the signal below:
"Station protection signals and station departure signals can be multiple or '’candelabra’'; they can comprise several lights on a number of separate arms for support.
Multiple home signal signals consist of several primary signals grouped together. The order of the signals from left to right, is the same as the routes or groups of routes they control. The uppermost light commands a route without speed restrictions, those placed below control routes with a speed limit after the next set of points depending on the presence of a warning aspect or a reminder signal placed under the signal. In the absence of any indication, the maximum speed is 30 km/h.
Where the lights are all at the same level they will be regarded as lower level and imply speed limits on all routes they controlled."
Okay, sorry for the lateness, it's a complicated time.
Thinking in the complete elimination of steam traction (last steam hauled regular services lasted until 1977), FS studied an improvement of the previous unified project and, at mid 70s, born D 345. This is basically a D 343 with a more reliable variant of the Fiat engine and better cooling system, that now uses the space previously occupied by the luggage room.
At the same time there was the need of more powerful locomotives for the last non electrified arteries, Bari-Lecce and Bari-Taranto, that will be wired only in the 90s. The answer became D 445, the most powerful between the unified series with a prime mover output of 1560 kw. A big difference from the previous series has been the use, as main generator, of an alternator/rectifier instead of the classic dynamo. For the first time an Italian diesel loco answered to the problem of coaches heating, that until the time made compulsory the use of steam equipped coaches and heating wagons on non wired lines, having a secondary generator that can supply electric heating to a maximum of six carriages and making possible the use of air conditioning, so that the most important trains from the north to the heel and the ionic coast can be done with the more modern coaches.
Slowly D 345 (145 units) became a familiar sight at the head of rakes of old coaches or freight trains, sometimes double heading because of the modest power, everywhere in the boot.
An unidentified D 345 supported by an heating wagon, doing a local train on the Asti to Cavallermaggiore line in February 1975. Photo by B. Studer.
345102x-030275castagnole.jpg (157.68 KiB) Viewed 1488 times
Instead the first 35 D 445 were assigned to Bari, Lecce and Taranto depots to be used almost only in heavy passenger services.
First series D 445.1004 doing a shunting movement in Crotone station, on the Ionic line, in 1995. Photo by S. Paolini.
4451004-100995crotone.jpg (198.12 KiB) Viewed 1488 times
In an effort to modernize secondary lines, at the beginning of the 80s, two more series of D 445s were built (the class finally totaled 150 machines), this time equipped with remote control to be driven from purpose built MD pilot coaches, and took in charge the heaviest passenger trains on non electrified lines.
Second series D 445s born yet in Medie Distanze livery. Here D 445.1045 pushing away a rake of the omonymous coaches from Vittorio Veneto station during a Treviso to Belluno service in 1994. Photo by S. Paolini.
4451045-280494vittorioveneto.jpg (189.43 KiB) Viewed 1488 times
Some D 345s too were equipped for use with push-pull coaches but without remote control, so they needed a driver on the piloting coach ordering another one on the loco.
To unify the class at the end of the 80s also the first series of D 445 has been equipped with push-pull devices and, after a life almost exclusively spent in passenger duties, in the last ten years this class has been cascaded also to the remaining freight services on secondary lines, because of the reduction of operations, the increased use of DMUs and the dumping of other classes; some locos have also been modified as rescue units for the high speed lines.
In the last years major overhauls of the two classes ceased and, at the end of the permitted mileage or in case of big failures, the locos are written off; the remaining ones are not in good condition because of the fault of maintenance due to the wicked Trenitalia policy.
Images courtesy of Photorail, probably the best italian site for railway photography.
Ciao
Thinking in the complete elimination of steam traction (last steam hauled regular services lasted until 1977), FS studied an improvement of the previous unified project and, at mid 70s, born D 345. This is basically a D 343 with a more reliable variant of the Fiat engine and better cooling system, that now uses the space previously occupied by the luggage room.
At the same time there was the need of more powerful locomotives for the last non electrified arteries, Bari-Lecce and Bari-Taranto, that will be wired only in the 90s. The answer became D 445, the most powerful between the unified series with a prime mover output of 1560 kw. A big difference from the previous series has been the use, as main generator, of an alternator/rectifier instead of the classic dynamo. For the first time an Italian diesel loco answered to the problem of coaches heating, that until the time made compulsory the use of steam equipped coaches and heating wagons on non wired lines, having a secondary generator that can supply electric heating to a maximum of six carriages and making possible the use of air conditioning, so that the most important trains from the north to the heel and the ionic coast can be done with the more modern coaches.
Slowly D 345 (145 units) became a familiar sight at the head of rakes of old coaches or freight trains, sometimes double heading because of the modest power, everywhere in the boot.
An unidentified D 345 supported by an heating wagon, doing a local train on the Asti to Cavallermaggiore line in February 1975. Photo by B. Studer.
First series D 445.1004 doing a shunting movement in Crotone station, on the Ionic line, in 1995. Photo by S. Paolini.
Second series D 445s born yet in Medie Distanze livery. Here D 445.1045 pushing away a rake of the omonymous coaches from Vittorio Veneto station during a Treviso to Belluno service in 1994. Photo by S. Paolini.
To unify the class at the end of the 80s also the first series of D 445 has been equipped with push-pull devices and, after a life almost exclusively spent in passenger duties, in the last ten years this class has been cascaded also to the remaining freight services on secondary lines, because of the reduction of operations, the increased use of DMUs and the dumping of other classes; some locos have also been modified as rescue units for the high speed lines.
In the last years major overhauls of the two classes ceased and, at the end of the permitted mileage or in case of big failures, the locos are written off; the remaining ones are not in good condition because of the fault of maintenance due to the wicked Trenitalia policy.
Images courtesy of Photorail, probably the best italian site for railway photography.
Ciao
Alcohol is an enemy. Man that escapes from the enemy is a coward!
More images.
Two unusual services documented by my goodfellow Marco Cantini:
In April of this year D345.1113 leaded a train of US Army vehicles from Germany to the Ederle barracks in Vicenza.
8-D-345.1113-Grisignano4.jpg (277.51 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
A semi-unknown service is the international freight between Gorizia and the nearby Nova Gorica, in Slovenia. Here D 345.1003 and a sister are pulling an empties rake in Vrtojba in the last May.
13 D 345.1003 Vrtojba.jpg (234.99 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
Instead D 445.1015, left the passenger services, is at the head of a cars train on the Pavia to Codogno line in 2012. Photo by S. Paolini courtesy of Photorail.
IMG_6595.jpg (197.49 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
Ciao
Two unusual services documented by my goodfellow Marco Cantini:
In April of this year D345.1113 leaded a train of US Army vehicles from Germany to the Ederle barracks in Vicenza.
Last edited by Benny on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Alcohol is an enemy. Man that escapes from the enemy is a coward!
And more.
D 345.1113 with a local train enters Castelnuovo station, on the Garfagnana line, in 1992. Note the old switch signal in the foreground.
3451113-280692castelnuovogarf.jpg (202.41 KiB) Viewed 1483 times
A magnificent image of the Italian-French line of Tenda, between Cuneo and Ventimiglia and Nice. The D 445 hauled train passed in the background section and ran in an helicoidal inside the mountain before transiting on the bridge.
4451xxx-041009cofontansaorge2 copia.jpg (244.75 KiB) Viewed 1483 times
The two photos by S. Paolini courtesy of Photorail
D 345.1063 and 1161 shooted on a sporadic service on the Trento to Venice line on the side of the Brenta river in July 2015. Photo by M. Cantini.
D-345.1063-Tezze-Primolano.jpg (268.66 KiB) Viewed 1483 times
Ciao
D 345.1113 with a local train enters Castelnuovo station, on the Garfagnana line, in 1992. Note the old switch signal in the foreground.
D 345.1063 and 1161 shooted on a sporadic service on the Trento to Venice line on the side of the Brenta river in July 2015. Photo by M. Cantini.
Alcohol is an enemy. Man that escapes from the enemy is a coward!
Thank you for the great presentation, Benny. You say "In the last years major overhauls of the two classes ceased and, at the end of the permitted mileage or in case of big failures, the locos are written off; the remaining ones are not in good condition because of the fault of maintenance due to the wicked Trenitalia policy." Can you tell us a little about this Trenitalia policy? Google didn't seem to have it.
Simply seems that Trenitalia (and regional governments too) policy is to reduce all the services in manner to do that users, passengers and freight forwarders, leave the rail and apply to road transport giving the opportunity to close lines.
To do it various things can be done: reduce to the minimum the maintenance to rolling stock and lines, put in service unusable timetables, substitute trains with buses lenghtening journey times, remove tracks and switches to make impossible serve industries, charge high prices, use four employeees when one is needed...in few words give a very bad service.
Ciao
To do it various things can be done: reduce to the minimum the maintenance to rolling stock and lines, put in service unusable timetables, substitute trains with buses lenghtening journey times, remove tracks and switches to make impossible serve industries, charge high prices, use four employeees when one is needed...in few words give a very bad service.
Ciao
Alcohol is an enemy. Man that escapes from the enemy is a coward!
Thank you for the information, Benny. In North America much of that is happening as a result of changing economic conditions. Also, we have a little joke: "It takes three men to change a light bulb: one man holding it and the other two turning him around."
Ciao
Ciao
The last class of diesels built for Trenitalia has been D 146.
These 32 single cab locos built by Firema and engined by Isotta Fraschini born, at the beginning of the 2000s, as heavy shunting machines but the strong reduction in freight traffic, the closing of humping yards and the bad condition of the unified classes suggested their use on trains; to do this, the class needed to be fitted with captors for the ATP that, because of the loco shape, were put on vertical perches giving a snail appearance. The entire class is still on use and collaborate with the remaining main line diesels in the skeleton freight service.
D 146.2022 with a empties freight from Torino to Cherasco
1 D 146.2022 Madonna del Pilone.jpg (224.94 KiB) Viewed 1414 times
And the charged return.
3-D-146.2022-Bra.jpg (278.49 KiB) Viewed 1414 times
The two images by M. Cantini taken on November 11 2015
Ciao
These 32 single cab locos built by Firema and engined by Isotta Fraschini born, at the beginning of the 2000s, as heavy shunting machines but the strong reduction in freight traffic, the closing of humping yards and the bad condition of the unified classes suggested their use on trains; to do this, the class needed to be fitted with captors for the ATP that, because of the loco shape, were put on vertical perches giving a snail appearance. The entire class is still on use and collaborate with the remaining main line diesels in the skeleton freight service.
D 146.2022 with a empties freight from Torino to Cherasco
Ciao
Alcohol is an enemy. Man that escapes from the enemy is a coward!
More D. 146 photos from Wiki / Railfaneurope.net. These must be older photos since since the engines don't have the captors for the ATP. What is ATP and the captors?
ATP are the initials for generally indicating Automatic Train Protection. In the specific case of D 146 the captors, or transponders, are needed for Sistema Supporto Condotta (SSC), a kind of train protection system used on secondary lines. Generally transponders are put on the roof but in this case it was impossible because of the loco shape.
Ciao
Ciao
Alcohol is an enemy. Man that escapes from the enemy is a coward!
Thank you, Benny. That sort of thing is very much in the news in the US right now. Ours is called Positive Train Control, and it is hoped that it will cut down on train accidents.