1938 or 2008? What the ...

[RS-3]

I think they need to lease, borrow or buy the OC&T 85 that's in Titusville. It almost never (?) sees service on the OC&T that I know of, and would be just right for the A&A. Yea it has friction nearings but it can be routed WNY&P/B&P so that shouldn't be a problem. It might need some mechanical tweaking. (Its my understanding its not actually owned by the OC&T. Anyone know the facts re ownership???)

RS

[jgallaway81]

The A&A would look very environmentally friendly, thats how the A&A would look.

The diesels would likely be painted to match the centercabs as closely as possible.

[pablo]

The genset diesels are quite expensive, since they're new. They're not coming, short of a state grant...and I don't know if you've heard about the state budget lately...

Dave Becker

[tomjohn]

I noticed in the November issue of railpace that a centercab locomotive was delivered to septa,which (RLI) Republic Locomotive Industries built . Second couldn't the railroad explore all possibilities ? I would if I had a business ...

[nessman]

So long as the feedmill is pretty much the only customer on the A&A, there really isn't a need for more power. Even with the realtively small number of car loads, the center cabs still need regular TLC.

I know that a 110 ton centercab was just retired from service from Russell Station (old RG&E coal fired electric generation station that went offline earlier this year) and donated to the Rochester Chapter of the NRHS still in operable condition. Perhaps the A&A could lease it - provide some revenue to the chapter's museum? Just a thought.

[Mountcastle]

If you ask me, they ought to bugger the diesels altogether and focus exclusively on steam power. What attention they'd receive, both within the 'railfan' community and in the media, as the only short line railroad in the United States operating steam locomotives for everyday operations.

There are probably only as many people who have commented on this thread (minus myself) who have any interest in the Arcade & Attica's diesel fleet. It's the steam that gives the A&A its flavour and appeal. If the A&A had the money (which, as we know, they don't, making this entire discussion pie in the sky, of course) they ought, in my opinion, to invest it in the steam and tourist aspect of the line.

And although prices at the pump are going down now, just wait to see where oil is, say, 5 or 10 years from now. I have an unhappy suspicion that one day, not very far off, it's going to be far less expensive to operate a steam locomotive than it will to operate a diesel one. And that mill at the end of the line, I think, may have its days numbered.

I hope to be proved happily wrong, but I think that if the Arcade & Attica wants to see a bright future, it ought to look to the past.

[Benjamin Maggi]

If you ask me, they ought to bugger the diesels altogether and focus exclusively on steam power. What attention they'd receive, both within the 'railfan' community and in the media, as the only short line railroad in the United States operating steam locomotives for everyday operations.

I disagree. Steam locomotives chew up money and require a lot more work to maintain than any diesel locomotive. And, for the few extra railfans that show up a couple of times a MONTH, they would take an economic beating. If they want to draw railfans, then they should have a public railfan steam day. They shouldn't do it every day in hopes that someone comes along. Besides, the railfans aren't going to be paying the railroad to run steam pulled freight trains! If railfans want steam, ride on the weekends in the coaches.

It would be a short-lived railroad that runs steam everyday. (Strasburg the only exception that I can think of, though I am not sure if they pull revenue freight anymore).

The railroad needs both freight and passenger income. But, trying to combine them might kill both. I say they keep on doing what they have been doing (and just run a "mixed train" once a year to appease those that want it and would be WILLING TO PAY FOR TICKETS for it.)

[RS-3]

Mr Mountcastle, forgive me, but I can't tell if you're serious or not! (I have to think not and my humor receptors are just not calibrated correctly.) But mostly I'm curious why you think the feed mill's days are numbered? (Honestly, I suspect without the mill the railroad would be doomed. Doomed I say. Real quick.) But the impression I got from my one and only visit to the mill a couple of years ago is its anything but on shaky ground and was in fact quite the picture of thriving business with a solid future. (Funny how people can see thing different eh? Again my apologies if I mistook your humor as seriousness.)

RS

[Mountcastle]

RS-3:

Well, obviously I haven't got a crystal ball and I'm certainly no expert on the 'feed' business but I wonder how many people outside of Wyoming County (or even within Wyoming County, for that matter) have ever heard of the Reisdorf Brothers Mill.

I don't know how large or small a customer base the mill has, confessedly. They could be shipping feed all over the globe, for all I know. But I suspect not. Particularly since the trains one sees returning from the mill are always very, very short. With the economy poised to take a head-first dive onto the hard pavement of Wall Street, I wonder how a business like Reisdorf's will fare.

Regardless of what sort of future the mill has, with only one customer along the line for freight business, it would seem to me the wiser move to focus the A&A's resources more heavily on the tourist aspect of the railroad than on the freight. And so if the railroad had an extra several hundred thousand dollars to spend, I believe they'd be utterly foolish to invest it in new diesels for the single-customer freight line as opposed to investing it in media promotion and rehabilitation of the tourist train's equipment.

As you contend, as the mill goeth, so goeth the Arcade & Attica. If that's the case, then the Arcade & Attica would be wise to start thinking outside the box. Perhaps my suggestion that the railroad use steam in place of diesel on an everyday basis was a bit elaborate. Nevertheless, I contend that, today, the steam train defines the railroad and that the steam train will one day save the railroad from oblivion...just as it did when they first began to run it.

The lure of nostalgia will draw passengers in an age in which the shape of our world becomes ever more uncertain and unfamiliar. Consumers will turn to familiar and comfortable things that hearken to a simpler time.

Things like rides back in time on steam trains.

[nessman]

In tough times, people cut back on discretionary expenses like tourism. However, you still need to feed livestock and eventually the people who dine on said livestock. Feed mills are generally local/regional in nature - otherwise it would drive up farmer's costs to drive further to a distribution point. Wyoming County is largely rural/agricultural which explains why you see feedmills in the middle of nowhere. Rail is the most economical means to ship bulk commodities.

If I remember correctly, Reisdorf is a majority shareholder of the A&A, and since the A&A really serves just a single customer, it's a business expense for Reisdorf meaning a tax write-off. If it's too profitable, then it becomes a tax expense as well. So there is a line in the sand that you must draw so the railroad operations are done to the best financial interests of the shareholders and not the tourists.

I'm not sure how profitable the passenger excursions are compared to the freight business - but being a private corporation the A&A's books are not open to the public. My guess the excurions are break-even at best given the costs to maintain the passenger fleet and steam engine, on top of very high costs for insurance/liability purposes. These days mass transit costs around $1 per passenger mile... so to pay $12 for a 14 mile round trip brings the A&A around the break-even point as I doubt they receive government subsidies to fund the operating costs for each excursion.

Keep in mind that historically speaking, passenger rail (along with any form of mass transit) is a money losing venture that requires significant subsidies to stay in operation - even when buses and trains are packed, they're still losing money. The recent capital investment for the A&A is for economic development to an otherwised depressed area to bring tourism $$$ into the area and perhaps a new industry or two that needs rail service.

[RussNelson]

What attention they'd receive, both within the 'railfan' community and in the media, as the only short line railroad in the United States operating steam locomotives for everyday operations.

Attention doesn't get you customers, and there's a REASON why the railroads so quickly abandoned steam, and the less profitable railroads abandoned it sooner (e.g. NYO&W). Maintenance costs are much higher; both breakdowns and preventative. Yeah, it's really romantic to think of, and see, steam pulling freight in 2008. Not practical, though.

[BR&P]

Another negative to the "all steam" concept is that it would define the railroad as a tourist or recreational entity foremost. That not might actually be true, but if someday the XYZ Corp was looking for a place to build a new plant, they could be left with the impression (admittedly incorrect) that the line is not a "real" railroad and that their freight service would be inferior to some other location which had regular diesel freight power.

[Mountcastle]

I stand humbled in my assessment. Nevertheless, it would be something to see if such a thing were feasible.

[jnugent56]

I know that a 110 ton centercab was just retired from service from Russell Station (old RG&E coal fired electric generation station that went offline earlier this year) and donated to the Rochester Chapter of the NRHS still in operable condition. Perhaps the A&A could lease it - provide some revenue to the chapter's museum? Just a thought.

Interesting thought. In the immediate future, the 110 tonner is going to be placed into service at our museum in Industry. This will take some of the stress off our set of 80 tonners, both of which need some work. As the 80 tonners come back online at full strength, along with our 45 tonners, there may be some leasing opportunities in the future. (I wouldn't rule it out, anyways.)

We sure do like our GE centercabs! They are tough, dependable little locomotives.

[Mountcastle]

Shopping at Niagara Hobby & Craft last night, I couldn't help but notice Pat's photo of 18 pulling the freight train in the current issue of Railpace Magazine (page 45). Splendid. Free advertising!