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  • Second thoughts about TGV-network expansion

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #1063568  by lpetrich
 
Le Figaro - Conjoncture : L'État va renoncer à des projets de ligne TGV
I used Google Translate and microsofttranslate.com on it. Google Translate turns the title into "The State will give up plans of TGV".

Image
LGV: the confirmed lines, and the others...
Black: Existing LGV
Dark Red: Under-construction LGV, or whose construction is confirmed.
Orange: Planned LGV

They are finding themselves short on money, so they are asking which of their planned lines that they would prefer to build.

They will likely build or continue to build these lines:
  • LeMans - Rennes
  • Tours - Bordeaux
  • Metz/Nancy - Strasbourg
  • Nîmes - Montpellier
  • Bordeaux - Toulouse, reducing the Paris-Toulouse time from 5h to 3h15m.
  • Paris Gare de l'Est - Charles de Gaulle Airport in Roissy
Curiously, the autotranslators described Toulouse as "the Pink City" (la Ville rose). But I've found Bonjour Paris - Toulouse - The Rose City.

However, these lines may be cancelled or placed on low priority:
  • Marseille - Nice, which is expensive, there is no agreement on the route, and the Paris-Nice by TGV will not be much faster than by air.
  • Lyon-Turin, which now would have rather low freight traffic, not enough to pay for it over 20 years. However, if the economy takes off again, there will be plenty more.
  • Rhin-Rhône's remaining 50 km between Dijon and Mulhouse, which will cost about 1 billion euros for about 10 min improvement.
  • Rennes to Brest or Quimper, which may be a bit expensive for the passengers it will have.
  • Poitiers to Limoges, likewise.
  • Bordeaux to the border with Spain, a lame duck because it's rather expensive and there's opposition to high-speed lines in the Basque country. It may only go to Mont de Marsan or Dax.
Lame duck = Google Translate of "a du plomb dans l'aile", "has some lead in its wing".

Lines not mentioned:
  • Paris to Caen or Rouen - Le Havre
  • Rennes to Nantes
  • Paris to Orléans - Bourges or Nevers, then to Lyon
  • Dijon / Besançon - Bourg-en-Bresse - Lyon
  • Narbonne - Montpellier, Perpignan, Toulouse
  • Dax - Tarbes
Checking on population figures, Paris has 12 million people in its metropolitan area, and the others are:

Rouen: 0.65m, Le Havre: 0.29m, Caen: 0.11m
Le Mans: 0.15m, Rennes: 0.21m, Brest: 0.14m, Quimper: 0.06m, Nantes: 0.80m
Tours: 0.31m, Limoges: 0.14m, Bordeaux: 1.11m, Toulouse: 1.2m, Dax: 0.02m, Mont de Marsan: 0.03m, Tarbes: 0.11m
Montpellier: 0.26m, Marseille: 1.6m, Nice: 1.0m
Orléans: 0.12m, Bourges: 0.07m, Nevers: 0.04m, Clermont-Ferrand: 0.14m (close to the line) - a line intended as a second Paris-Lyon one
Lyon: 2.1m, Dijon: 0.25m, Mulhouse: 0.28m
Turin: 2.2m
Strasbourg: 0.64m, Köln (Cologne), Germany: 1.01m
 #1063676  by george matthews
 
There is a new president in France (M Hollande), and he is under pressure (from Merkel) to do something about the Deficit.

I think most of these lines will be built eventually.

Note that in Britain the government has just announced a large programme of electrification. (See worldwide section).
 #1065005  by MCHammer
 
Prioritization of certain projects is definitely an okay thing. I am surprised that a Lyon relief line is not a higher-priority than connecting Toulouse though. As far as I had heard, LGV No. 1 was nearing capacity wasn't it?
 #1065110  by lpetrich
 
I've seen a Clermont-Ferrand line proposed as an expansion for the Paris-Lyon line. That line is apparently difficult to expand beyond two tracks.

But some of the lines seem to me like tonneau de porc.

Caen is less populous than Rouen or Le Havre, and Quimper less populous than Brest. Could it be because Caen, Rouen, and Quimper are provincial capitals?

Tarbes? Is there some big Pyrenees ski resort near there?
 #1066122  by amtrakowitz
 
george matthews wrote:There is a new president in France (M Hollande), and he is under pressure (from Merkel) to do something about the Deficit.

I think most of these lines will be built eventually.

Note that in Britain the government has just announced a large programme of electrification. (See worldwide section).
Some epoch in history, when France is once again taking orders from Germany. Even worse, Germany dictating national policy through a monetary unit. France may be next on the list of EU countries in the eurozone to go broke, too.

If "most of those lines" do get built, it will not be under France's autonomous domestic policy. That's gone. It will be due to whether Germany wants them built or not.
 #1066125  by morris&essex4ever
 
amtrakowitz wrote:
george matthews wrote:There is a new president in France (M Hollande), and he is under pressure (from Merkel) to do something about the Deficit.

I think most of these lines will be built eventually.

Note that in Britain the government has just announced a large programme of electrification. (See worldwide section).
Some epoch in history, when France is once again taking orders from Germany. Even worse, Germany dictating national policy through a monetary unit. France may be next on the list of EU countries in the eurozone to go broke, too.

If "most of those lines" do get built, it will not be under France's autonomous domestic policy. That's gone. It will be due to whether Germany wants them built or not.
Maybe the French should be taking orders from the US and build HSR in CA, the midwest, and upgrade the NEC!!!
 #1066152  by george matthews
 
Some epoch in history, when France is once again taking orders from Germany. Even worse, Germany dictating national policy through a monetary unit. France may be next on the list of EU countries in the eurozone to go broke, too.

If "most of those lines" do get built, it will not be under France's autonomous domestic policy. That's gone. It will be due to whether Germany wants them built or not.
Things are much more complicated than you think. I don't think anyone knows how they will work out.
 #1066509  by amtrakowitz
 
morris&essex4ever wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:
george matthews wrote:There is a new president in France (M Hollande), and he is under pressure (from Merkel) to do something about the Deficit.

I think most of these lines will be built eventually.

Note that in Britain the government has just announced a large programme of electrification. (See worldwide section).
Some epoch in history, when France is once again taking orders from Germany. Even worse, Germany dictating national policy through a monetary unit. France may be next on the list of EU countries in the eurozone to go broke, too.

If "most of those lines" do get built, it will not be under France's autonomous domestic policy. That's gone. It will be due to whether Germany wants them built or not.
Maybe the French should be taking orders from the US and build HSR in CA, the midwest, and upgrade the NEC
SNCF wanted to build the CAHSR main line next to I-5. The CA politicians said no to that.

SNCF does not upgrade their traditional main lines to be any faster than 137 mph. That's the fastest speed the TGVs run at when on them, i.e. off the LGVs.
george matthews wrote:Things are much more complicated than you think. I don't think anyone knows how they will work out
They are not that complicated. The European Union is going through a period of power struggles right now, with but one goal in mind.
 #1066562  by morris&essex4ever
 
amtrakowitz wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote:Maybe the French should be taking orders from the US and build HSR in CA, the midwest, and upgrade the NEC!!
SNCF wanted to build the CAHSR main line next to I-5. The CA politicians said no to that.

SNCF does not upgrade their traditional main lines to be any faster than 137 mph. That's the fastest speed the TGVs run at when on them, i.e. off the LGVs.
That doesn't mean SNCF can't raise average speeds on the NEC by upgrading the infrastructure. Do the conventional lines have higher average speeds than the NEC?
 #1066577  by george matthews
 
amtrakowitz wrote:
morris&essex4ever wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:
george matthews wrote:There is a new president in France (M Hollande), and he is under pressure (from Merkel) to do something about the Deficit.

I think most of these lines will be built eventually.

Note that in Britain the government has just announced a large programme of electrification. (See worldwide section).
Some epoch in history, when France is once again taking orders from Germany. Even worse, Germany dictating national policy through a monetary unit. France may be next on the list of EU countries in the eurozone to go broke, too.

If "most of those lines" do get built, it will not be under France's autonomous domestic policy. That's gone. It will be due to whether Germany wants them built or not.
Maybe the French should be taking orders from the US and build HSR in CA, the midwest, and upgrade the NEC
SNCF wanted to build the CAHSR main line next to I-5. The CA politicians said no to that.

SNCF does not upgrade their traditional main lines to be any faster than 137 mph. That's the fastest speed the TGVs run at when on them, i.e. off the LGVs.
george matthews wrote:Things are much more complicated than you think. I don't think anyone knows how they will work out
They are not that complicated. The European Union is going through a period of power struggles right now, with but one goal in mind.
The thing to remember is that the system of government in France is rather different from the United States. There is a central plan which goes on whoever is in office. The proposed LGVs are part of the plan. I feel sure that even if there are delays the map will be completed.

I am sure that the Tarbes branch is intended to take people to Lourdes, a major pilgrimage place of the Catholic church. From the point of view of transport economics it is a major tourist centre. TGV trains would continue on the classic line.

The connections to Spain will also be built.

The EU is going through a period of economic disturbance. I am not an economist and so don't understand whether it will be solved and how. But the US is also in bad trouble. Will the US problems be solved? Possibly. But China looks very dodgy too.

The French plan will go ahead eventually. It would be nice if the US had a plan too but perhaps the weakness of the US government system makes it difficult to have one. If there was a US plan I suggest it would intend to create a public transport link between every city of a certain size, perhaps starting with buses but finally to be rail of the highest speed achievable.