Streetcar track gauge - broad, standard, or narrow?

[Myrtone]

It seems that you're stuck in a rut where the ONLY solution for Cincinnati is the one you want. When people offer valid reasons to stick with standard gauge you either reject their reasoning or come up with more excuses why you believe the choice of another gauge would be better. Is there no chance of accepting standard gauge?

People offer reason that are "vaild" according to conventional wisdom. I don't see how you are going to convince me to just believe the media and industry spokespeolpe.

Nostalgia for a system that is long gone and does not need to be interoperable is not a valid reason. Look at the city (any city) as if it never had any street car service at all and explain why something other than standard gauge *must* be used. Otherwise, accept that in this century the standard for entirely new systems (Which Cincinnati is) is not to be stuck in a one hundred year old box.

What about the idea that because you had something other than standard before and that gauge still survives elsewhere, use the same gauge unless you have a legitimate reason to do otherwise.

I wouldn't say that Mr. Tone rejects their reasoning or comes up with more excuses, it's more like he repeats all his prior stated reasons, acknowledging very little other peoples' comments on his reasons, and once in a while comes up with new non-sequitors.

I don't agree with the majority here, is there anything wrong with that? As for coming up with more "excuses," why not call that "using asperger's as an excuse?"

Cincinatti's old system was PA Broad Gauge, and if they had retained that old system then they would not today consider anything other than broad gauge. I consider that non-sequitor, since I don't see how the long abandoned old system should have anything to do with the new system.

It seems that almost everyone here except me considers it non-sequiteur, that doens't mean I am wrong, no amount of wrongs make a right.

Other cities have converted TO standard gauge or have built new meter gauge, which in my mind is a form of standardization.
I don't see why either of these means anyone should build new to a non-standard gauge. I also can't think of any examples where someone has recently converted FROM standard to anything else, and the only example of building new non-standard is BART, and there's been plenty of discussion elsewhere that questions BART's wisdom in picking that gauge.

Maybe those who designed the BART were thinking outside the square just like me, and if they didn't show an interest in standard rail equipment they may have seen no reason to standardise.

There are 3 other North American cities that have PA Broad Gauge. I don't see how that's a reason to make Cincinatti decide not to follow the dozen and a half and we hope growing number of cities that retained legacy or built new standard gauge.

One reason or the other was not my sole basis for my considering that gauge if I were the decision maker. The idea is this, if your previous system was built to the same gauge as one or more surviving systems elswhere that have shown no signs of regauging, you build to that gauge unless you have a legitimate reason to do otherwise, now that might be counterintiatively different from the majority view (because I am working from a different starting point), but that doesn't makes makes inherently less sense. It's like claiming that asperger's syndrome is a dysfuction, when there is in fact evidence that it is a difference.

Broad gauge will allow 100% low floor cars to have wider aisles. Besides the fact that there are very few North American low floor installations, and I'm pretty sure no 100% low floor, I don't believe those narrow aisles on standard gauge low floor cars are the calamity one might conclude from myrtone's repetition.

But Tonyp agrees with this view.

The most recent non-sequitor is his mention that current unidirectional operations aren't going to convert to bidirectional.

It's an analogy, not a sequitor.

He also sometimes bemoans that decision makers aren't looking at the whole cost of picking standard gauge, but does not acknowledge any of the costs of picking non-standard gauge, instead he mentions only a few questionable benefits.

I don't agree that these things are neccesarily the case. I admit that it may reduce cost (and possible embodied energy), if you choose an off-the-shelf design, especially if it comes from a manufacturer that is not that open to customisation.

Having complained about myrtone's style, and dog in the manger stubbornness I want to make it clear that although I don't agree with his opinion I will, as mentioned several times in other cases, defend to his death his right to express it. I just wish he'd spell Philadelphia correctly a few times and refrain from expressing fact as opinion.

Please assume good faith. If you are going to complain about me would you complain about anyone out there who is on my side, and I'm sure they exist. The spelling error was an honest mistake, that placename is not easy to spell.

[electricron]

I wouldn't say that Mr. Tone rejects their reasoning or comes up with more excuses, it's more like he repeats all his prior stated reasons, acknowledging very little other peoples' comments on his reasons, and once in a while comes up with new non-sequitors.
Having complained about myrtone's style, and dog in the manger stubbornness I want to make it clear that although I don't agree with his opinion I will, as mentioned several times in other cases, defend to his death his right to express it. I just wish he'd spell Philadelphia correctly a few times and refrain from expressing fact as opinion.

I agree with you, he is stubborn - but has the right to express it over and over and over and over again.

Meanwhile, the City of Cincinnati will continue to ignore him and will continue to buy standard gauge.
This whole thread has been a waste of effort, and I'm sorry I've posted so many times on it, including this last time.

Don't feed the troll anymore, this thread will soon drop off the first page and get lost in second page nothingness.

[justalurker66]

Just a note: In Myrtone's latest post he attributed several quotes to me that were actually written by Patrick Boylan. If that post is quoted care should be taken to restore the proper authorship.

[Myrtone]

I fixed the quote, again I didn't realise Could it be that not one out of the large number of posters here agrees with me on this? Or maybe those who agree with my proposition haven't commented. But let's consider Glasgow, they were the last city in the British Isles to abandon trams, in 1962. Now they were built to a gauge slightly narrower than standard and because it differed by less than a width of the rail, dual gauge track would not have been feasible, so a Stuttgarter style gauge conversion programme would not have been possible. It is therefore almost certain that the Glasgow system wolud have remained at that gauge to this day. However it only differed slightly from standard gauge and no longer exists, so if I were the decision maker I would choose standard gauge for any new system in Glasgow.

Meanwhile, the City of Cincinnati will continue to ignore him and will continue to buy standard gauge.
This whole thread has been a waste of effort, and I'm sorry I've posted so many times on it, including this last time.

Maybe, but I don't agree with that, is there anything wrong with a counterintuatively different viewpoint? It seems as if you are the ones who are stubborn, at first one or two posters dispute me and a whole line of others came to blindly agree. If all other posters agree with each other and not with me, this suggests that most of them are more prepared than I am to believe the media and industry spokespeople or just take various received wisdom for granted without opposition. If I don't agree with their decision, does that make me wrong?

[mtuandrew]

Moderator's Note: I think this thread has run its course. Please let me or Greg know if you have more information (not opinion) to add, regarding cost of conversion or manufacture, systems considering a different gauge than standard, or something else germane to the topic of track gauge.

*locked with a spare St. Paul City Railway padlock*