Railroad Forums 

  • Is Passenger Rail Doomed?

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #1044731  by kato
 
I doubt there's ever enough demand for a non-stop express between Syracuse and Buffalo though.
 #1044736  by mtuandrew
 
In fact, Amtrak has proven that there is not enough demand even for a limited stop WAS-NYP-BOS Acela Express. I forget if there were stops at PHL or elsewhere, but if a train can hit the major cities of the Eastern seaboard and still not garner enough ridership to support itself, that's a good indicator that BUF-SYR would be a minimal market at best.

Moderator's Note: We know that, in theory, a 110 mph line could support traffic with an average speed approaching 110 mph. In reality, that won't happen, and is very much tangential to our conversation. Let's stick with the topic at hand - "Is Passenger Rail Doomed?"
 #1044990  by amtrakowitz
 
79-mph Amtrak trains average between 40 and 45 mph. The Acela Express is 82 mph BOS-WAS (when on time) and could be improved greatly with more 140-150-mph running. To hit triple-digit average speeds with relatively frequent stops, 140-150 mph top speed gives a nice cushion, even though there is one route segment on SJ's X2000 train (top speed 125 mph) where it achieves a 109-mph average speed.

And frankly, speed competitiveness is just one factor as to whether passenger rail is "doomed" or not, the others being government interference (with all forms of transportation) and correct choosing of viable markets (RENFE's Toledo to Albacete and Cuenca AVE line not being one of those).
 #1045098  by kato
 
amtrakowitz wrote:the others being government interference (with all forms of transportation)
Or sometimes the lack of it. I'd argue that a lack of "government interference" e.g. in the lack of common-access regulations for rail infrastructure might hinder re-emerging passenger rail in the USA for example. That's mostly an ideological question though.
 #1045279  by amtrakowitz
 
kato wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:the others being government interference (with all forms of transportation)
Or sometimes the lack of it. I'd argue that a lack of "government interference" e.g. in the lack of common-access regulations for rail infrastructure might hinder re-emerging passenger rail in the USA for example. That's mostly an ideological question though.
I see you haven't attributed "lack of regulation" to anything that gets in the way of passenger rail, though; that's a requirement if you're going to argue anything past a rhetorical statement. And no, it's not ideological. Have you looked at the regulations and seen how they increase costs for passenger rail? If not, then please do so.
 #1045504  by jstolberg
 
If passenger rail were doomed, the private sector wouldn't be getting involved. Ferrari has started a passenger rail company, Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori.
The new Italo – the first privately operated high-speed train in Europe – is a train like no other, claims Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, chairman of Ferrari and boss of NTV, the firm challenging the state service.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... rain-italo

Of course the train is sleek and Ferrari red in color.
Mobbed by press at the inaugural journey from Rome Tiburtina, the flamboyant Montezemolo purred: "I'm addicted to speed. Speed and risk. Economic risk."

There are no travel "classes", NTV insists, only different "ambiences" – albeit differentiated by bigger seats, at-seat dining and pricier tickets.

"Remember, you're in the cheap seats!" cried Montezemolo, to the press in carriage seven (ambience: "Smart"). He stressed that "our prices are super-competitive despite the services we offer", which include free Wi-Fi, live TV, films in a cinema carriage and comfortable leather seating.
They have started high speed rail service with 4 round trips per day from Milan to Rome continuing to Naples. That schedule will be doubled to 8 round trips per day between Milan and Rome beginning May 26th. More trains will be added after June 29th, ultimately becoming 17 round trips between Milan and Rome (20 between Bologna and Rome). http://www.italotreno.it/EN/timetables- ... rview.aspx

Top speed is 300 kph (186 mph).
 #1045791  by amtrakowitz
 
jstolberg wrote:If passenger rail were doomed, the private sector wouldn't be getting involved
That's government contracts. Not the same thing.
 #1046026  by jstolberg
 
amtrakowitz wrote:
jstolberg wrote:If passenger rail were doomed, the private sector wouldn't be getting involved
That's government contracts. Not the same thing.
Can you clarify? According to Mr. Di Montezemolo
We are in high speed because, in Italy, it is the only sector that has become open to competition. For us, this is a 100% market operation: we are committing our equity and we are not receiving any state subsidy or protection, in the event that we do not meet our objectives. In other words, we do not have a safety net – just our equity, values and ideas.
http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/ ... GB_def.pdf

I find it remarkable that they can go from 0 to 17 round trips in just a few months.
 #1046502  by amtrakowitz
 
Take a closer look. There's no free market for any member of the European Union; it's the social market economy, imposed by law. What you're seeing there is just another form of the failed faux-"privatization" model that Britain tried out. NTV doesn't own its own stations or tracks, and SNCF (France's state railroad) owns a 20 percent stake so now you've got French taxpayers subsidizing its startup.

Very slick PDF, BTW.
 #1046518  by SouthernRailway
 
kato wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:the others being government interference (with all forms of transportation)
Or sometimes the lack of it. I'd argue that a lack of "government interference" e.g. in the lack of common-access regulations for rail infrastructure might hinder re-emerging passenger rail in the USA for example. That's mostly an ideological question though.
Well, most RR lines in the US are privately owned. It's not government's place to force private property owners to let their tracks, many of which are already congested with significant freight traffic, let other trains run on them.

If the government wants to build additional capacity, at government's expense, and then let any passenger train operators use those tracks, fine.
 #1046623  by jstolberg
 
amtrakowitz wrote:Take a closer look. There's no free market for any member of the European Union; it's the social market economy, imposed by law. What you're seeing there is just another form of the failed faux-"privatization" model that Britain tried out. NTV doesn't own its own stations or tracks, and SNCF (France's state railroad) owns a 20 percent stake so now you've got French taxpayers subsidizing its startup.

Very slick PDF, BTW.
In the same way that NTV doesn't own stations or tracks, US airlines don't own runways or terminals, and the federal government handles the dispatching (air traffic control). US airlines don't own parking lots and airports don't pay property taxes, which leaves US taxpayers subsidizing their startup and operations.
 #1046739  by David Benton
 
there are also parrallels in the telecommunications and electricity industries , where private companies are forced to let competitors use their lines .
I dont understand how allowing more competition is somehow a "socialist idea " . and so what if it is anyway . you simply think if you can label something socialist , then its a bad idea , regardles of its merits .
 #1046781  by george matthews
 
David Benton wrote:there are also parrallels in the telecommunications and electricity industries , where private companies are forced to let competitors use their lines .
I dont understand how allowing more competition is somehow a "socialist idea " . and so what if it is anyway . you simply think if you can label something socialist , then its a bad idea , regardless of its merits .
I preferred the British Rail set-up. But it was starved of funds. Hence it ran its services very efficiently, the most economical system in Europe. Investment was difficult. They did electrify the East Coast mainline and a few other lines, but it turns out rather too cheaply as the overhead tends to blow down during gales.

The system introduced by the John Major government from some ideological motive has had positive and negative results. Positively the owners of the rolling stock have invested in new carriages. Almost the whole stock has been renewed. Negatively, the cost of using these new carriages is high, to make a profit for the banks that own them.

In general the cost of running the whole system is a lot higher and fares are very expensive, for walk-on fares. The cost to the tax payer is much higher than it was for BR.

But even with the higher fares, trains are full, demand keeps on increasing.

One factor in all European states is that they have to follow European Commission rules which require a division between the companies operating the trains, and the companies owning the tracks. This is required even if both are state owned. Thus British Rail would have had to be split anyway. In Italy, as in Britain, a company can propose a service on the track authority's tracks. Several examples of this can be found in Britain - such as Grand Central and Hull Trains.

A definite drawback to these new rules is the proliferation of contracts and legal documents and a loss of flexibility. Under BR a train could be diverted by simple internal procedures. Now the Operating company has to deal with the track owner and negotiate with other entities.
Last edited by george matthews on Thu May 17, 2012 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 #1046782  by num1hendrickfan
 
David Benton wrote:there are also parrallels in the telecommunications and electricity industries , where private companies are forced to let competitors use their lines .
I dont understand how allowing more competition is somehow a "socialist idea " . and so what if it is anyway . you simply think if you can label something socialist , then its a bad idea , regardles of its merits .
The problem is the added competition is being added to already congested and soon to be over-congested private freight rail lines. It's one thing to add competition on an entirely new rail line, but another when it directly impacts the host railroad that is allowing the competition. What we're saying is that we have no problem with competition, provided the government doesn't burden the private carriers by requiring them to host that competition.

Burdening the private carriers will ultimately bring freight traffic to a near standstill, take Chicago as a prime example here. I'm sure you've most likely read the NY times article, that describes how a freight train average 3 mph ( and takes almost a full day to enter and exit the city of Chicago ) through the course of it's travels through the city of Chicago. Once out of Chicago that average picks up to about 30 mph. This isn't good for any business, and this is precisely what we'll see more of if the government gets their way.
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