Fantasy Commuter Rail

[BuddCarToBethlehem]

And on the BSL: Is the Alma Loop at Cottman & Castor behind the Firstrust Bank building? I am actually very familiar with that area. What about at the Bells Corner Loop behind the Dunkin' Donuts, where Castor becomes Bustleton? How about another Trans. Ctr. there. And I'm assuming then the line then runs up to Somerton as originally planned.

I don't know about Dunkin', haven't been in that part of Philly for over 10 years. But it is at Cottman. The reason I suggested Alma for the transportation center was because the location reminded me of Olney. I don't mean the neighborhood, though. At Olney there's something like 3 or 4 bus routes along with the BSL that stop there and it's located near Central H.S. and Widner Memorial School. At Alma, you have a couple bus routes, a trackless trolley route and Northeast H.S. near by. I wasn't thinking a Norristown-esque trans. ctr. but more like Olney Trans. Ctr.

http://septa.org/maps/region/pdf/suburb.pdf

I did think about running the NHSL down 52nd St. to Market, but as I gave it more thought. It would connect with the MFSL less than 2 miles from 69th St. Station. The Market-Frankford is a different guage than the Norristown cars. Making acess to platforms, the 3rd rail, and other technical issues a nightmare, so terminating at 52nd & Market Streets and transfering to the MFSL line would be prudent so the whole concept seemed a bit redundant to me. Right now to get from Manyunk and Conshocken, you have to ether take a bus or use the Norristown Line via North Philly. Besides, I'm sure some commuters at Ivy Ridge would love an alternative to that staircase. Although, I heard that SEPTA recently tore down the platform they built in 1980 so a new station would have to be built. I was thinking of a quicker way to reach center city. Also with Route 100 being standard guage, I figured laying the 3rd rail would be the biggest task once it reaches the main line. As for the cars, the Lehigh Valley Transit ran trolleys from Allentown to Norristown, they switched to 3rd rail from overhead wire to contue the trip to 69th St. Station in Upper Darby. I assume that any expansion of the NHSL would require aquisition of more cars. Why not make the new cars run on both overhead wire and 3rd rail, if laying a 3rd rail through to 30th St. Station isn't practical?

I know what you mean about getting downtown. Right now I have to drive to either Colmar or Ft. Washington since Lansdale isn't very practical. But most of the time I drive to Fern Rock. It's just easier, especially on weekends when I don't have to worry about missing the train and waiting another hour for the next one.

[DireFreights]

Also with Route 100 being standard guage, I figured laying the 3rd rail would be the biggest task once it reaches the main line. As for the cars, the Lehigh Valley Transit ran trolleys from Allentown to Norristown, they switched to 3rd rail from overhead wire to contue the trip to 69th St. Station in Upper Darby. I assume that any expansion of the NHSL would require aquisition of more cars. Why not make the new cars run on both overhead wire and 3rd rail, if laying a 3rd rail through to 30th St. Station isn't practical?

Just today I took a railfan outing up to Norristown via the Manayunk Line. After seeing the Pennsy ROW along the Reading line, I feel as if an NHSL extention via the PRR line is actually quite practical. The ROW appears to be virtually preserved under much overgrowth and greenery, though at Conshohocken it disappears a little. And it's not about the the 3rd rail/overhead wire incompatibility that bothers me, but it's the mix of systems: I'm pretty sure the NHSL is a light rail line in the eyes of railroad regulations (though it is more like heavy rail), and I'm unsure how that would work with Amtrak and Septa trains intertwining through switches and rolling along surrounding track. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[BuddCarToBethlehem]

I'm pretty sure the NHSL is a light rail line in the eyes of railroad regulations (though it is more like heavy rail), and I'm unsure how that would work with Amtrak and Septa trains intertwining through switches and rolling along surrounding track. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

The NHSL used to be considered light rail, but now it's heavy rail. In the transit terms, check out this link for the definitions:

http://www.apta.com/resources/reportsan ... y_1994.pdf
Go to PDF page 16 (29 of the publication).

I've heard people complain that SEPTA errorred when they chose to use the Reading line for Norristown when the Pennsylvania line was much higher from the river and less prone to flooding. However, one has to remember that the Reading was still running trains to Reading and Pottsville. Also the Reading was in much better financial condition when compared to the Penn Central. It's track was in better shape, and since both companies operated SEPTA's commuter trains until 1976, it just made financial sense at that time to use the Reading line. Thus leaving the PRR service to end at Manyunk until Ivy Ridge opened in '80. That line would have to be free of grade crossings for the NHSL cars to work. The Long Island Railroad has a lot of grade crossings, but with 10 and 12 car consists, there's allways contact with the third rail. A one car train may be problematic. I guess a one car consist would have to get a good rolling start and hope it makes it across the crossing. I wonder if the lights would flicker on and off like the old Broad Street or New York subway cars when it went through a switch.


I understand about the mix of SEPTA and Amtrak, but I spend a bit of time in Long Island. The LIRR runs third rail trains through Sunnyside Yard to Penn Station, so logistically, it's possible. As a practical matter, who knows? Maybe your right, maybe something like clearances along the platforms and tracks or switching locations would make it difficult to financially impractical. Heck, that's what $100 million "impact" studies that lead to absolutely nothing are commissioned for!

[DireFreights]

I've heard people complain that SEPTA errorred when they chose to use the Reading line for Norristown when the Pennsylvania line was much higher from the river and less prone to flooding. However, one has to remember that the Reading was still running trains to Reading and Pottsville. Also the Reading was in much better financial condition when compared to the Penn Central. It's track was in better shape, and since both companies operated SEPTA's commuter trains until 1976, it just made financial sense at that time to use the Reading line. Thus leaving the PRR service to end at Manyunk until Ivy Ridge opened in '80.

This kind of stems from the thought about the two ROWs, but is otherwise unrelated (though it has to do with the original topic of this thread- lol). What if modern-day Norristown Line trains ran via the Manayunk Viaduct across the Schukyill, and then up the RDG row to DeKalb Street? Then the current RDG line would terminate at the RDG Manayunk station. Rather than a Cynwyd Dinky, we'd have a Manayunk Dinky. Or somehow it could become an elevated rapid transit line, running as an extension of the BSL, branching off at North Philadelphia. Would that make any sense really?

[BuddCarToBethlehem]

This kind of stems from the thought about the two ROWs, but is otherwise unrelated (though it has to do with the original topic of this thread- lol). What if modern-day Norristown Line trains ran via the Manayunk Viaduct across the Schukyill, and then up the RDG row to DeKalb Street? Then the current RDG line would terminate at the RDG Manayunk station. Rather than a Cynwyd Dinky, we'd have a Manayunk Dinky. Or somehow it could become an elevated rapid transit line, running as an extension of the BSL, branching off at North Philadelphia. Would that make any sense really?

Good point.

Although, I would love to ride any connection from the PRR line to the Reading line near Manyunk. With around 40 or so feet difference in elevation, that would make for an interesting engineering feat.

Sorry if I got off topic. But, since we're the only two posting on this thread at this time, that should grant us some latitude. lol

[DireFreights]

Although, I would love to ride any connection from the PRR line to the Reading line near Manyunk. With around 40 or so feet difference in elevation, that would make for an interesting engineering feat.

Sorry if I got off topic. But, since we're the only two posting on this thread at this time, that should grant us some latitude. lol

Well, this is fantasy.
And this has become more like a two-way chat, rather than an open discussion with others. Being off-topic isn't a problem.

[Patrick Boylan]

You did say off-topic shouldn't be a problem, and I assume you're also asking for others to input on what's become a dialogue, or 2-way chat, so here's my 3rd person contribution to further off-topic: What, besides the name, is the difference between a station and a transportation center?

I assume it has nothing to do with integrated modes, since 69th St, Olney and Frankford all had bus and streetcar off-street platforms integrated into the subway stations long before they got their names changed from station, or terminal, to 'trans center'.

[DireFreights]

You did say off-topic shouldn't be a problem, and I assume you're also asking for others to input on what's become a dialogue, or 2-way chat, so here's my 3rd person contribution to further off-topic: What, besides the name, is the difference between a station and a transportation center?

I assume it has nothing to do with integrated modes, since 69th St, Olney and Frankford all had bus and streetcar off-street platforms integrated into the subway stations long before they got their names changed from station, or terminal, to 'trans center'.

It has to do with the termination of modes (surface, subway-elevated, it doesn't matter) at certain stations. Most stations have connecting bus service. However, stations like Fern Rock and 69th Street see larger amounts of connections and end-points for surface routes and transit routes. Transportation centers act as centralized hubs for bus service as well as a place of transfer. Septa loves their transportation centers, and I like the entire concept as well.

[Patrick Boylan]

My 2 cents many of the 'transportation centers', such as the aforementioned 69th St, Olney, and Frankford, are little different as transportation centers than they were when we called them stations or terminals, which were perfectly good names.

Your stated criteria that they see larger amounts of connections and end-points for surface routes and transit routes, and act as centralized hubs for bus service as well as a place of transfer surely applies to 30th St, Suburban and Market East, which we still call stations.

So my fantasy commuter rail would involve NOT changing our station names to transportation center.
And I would forbid destination signs from displaying non-transit info, such as the many 'Go Phillies' and 'Go Eagles' messages on vehicles that go nowhere near the Phillies or Eagles stadia.

[DireFreights]

My 2 cents many of the 'transportation centers', such as the aforementioned 69th St, Olney, and Frankford, are little different as transportation centers than they were when we called them stations or terminals, which were perfectly good names.

Your stated criteria that they see larger amounts of connections and end-points for surface routes and transit routes, and act as centralized hubs for bus service as well as a place of transfer surely applies to 30th St, Suburban and Market East, which we still call stations.

So my fantasy commuter rail would involve NOT changing our station names to transportation center.

I never said all stations with connections would become transportation centers. I just like the concept. The transportation center name works only for certain stations. It helps people understand the extended integration of different modes of transit. Just because a regional rail station (like Market East) has bus service doesn't make it a possible transportation center. I understand that there are trolley and transit connections there as well, but they service their own stops with pedestrian connections to separate rail stations.

And I would forbid destination signs from displaying non-transit info, such as the many 'Go Phillies' and 'Go Eagles' messages on vehicles that go nowhere near the Phillies or Eagles stadia.

And I actually like when they do that. It shows that groups and organizations in the city actually care about what's going on around town.

[BuddCarToBethlehem]

You did say off-topic shouldn't be a problem, and I assume you're also asking for others to input on what's become a dialogue, or 2-way chat, so here's my 3rd person contribution to further off-topic: What, besides the name, is the difference between a station and a transportation center?

I assume it has nothing to do with integrated modes, since 69th St, Olney and Frankford all had bus and streetcar off-street platforms integrated into the subway stations long before they got their names changed from station, or terminal, to 'trans center'.

That's a good question. When I was kid, Fern Rock was just a Broad Street Subway "station." All irony aside with it being surface-level. Then one day POOF, it's a "Transportation Center," Along with Olney.

When it comes to SEPTA parlance, I'm not quite sure. You're right, one thing the TC's have in common is multiple transportation modes (i. e. rail, subway, trolley, bus, etc.). Another thing would be a signifigant street level presences. Which explains why City Hall remains a "station." Then again the concept reminds me of when Wachovia rebranded all their branches "Financial Centers." At the end of the day it's still a BANK BRANCH.

No offense DF, but I have to agree with Mr. Boylan. On the sports thing. I hate that TV ad where they claim people are rooting on trains to the park. BS! In over 30 years of riding SEPTA to Broad & Pattison I have never seen or heard that. Closest was around '79 or so when KYW-1060, paid to have some cars painted in a special scheme for the "Phillies Specials." But it looked stupid when the cars got mixed into consists with the maroon ones. This may be the cynic in me, but no organization does anything without a motive. Whether it's self-promotion to advocacy, just look at that fact that SEPTA allows "Sponsorship" of stations. AT&T station???? WTH? If the MTA did that in New York, I'd be screwed. If I want to get off the 7 train at Roosevet Hights/Jackson Ave. so I can transfer to the the F train to get to Neptune Ave. so I can go to my favorite pizza joint after a Mets game, I'd miss my transfer if they remamed Roosevelt Hights something like "CW-11 WPIX-TV Station," just for a buck. I wonder how many novice SEPTA riders were confused by the Pattison to AT&T change.

[DireFreights]

No offense DF, but I have to agree with Mr. Boylan. On the sports thing. I hate that TV ad where they claim people are rooting on trains to the park. BS! In over 30 years of riding SEPTA to Broad & Pattison I have never seen or heard that. Closest was around '79 or so when KYW-1060, paid to have some cars painted in a special scheme for the "Phillies Specials." But it looked stupid when the cars got mixed into consists with the maroon ones. This may be the cynic in me, but no organization does anything without a motive. Whether it's self-promotion to advocacy, just look at that fact that SEPTA allows "Sponsorship" of stations. AT&T station???? WTH? If the MTA did that in New York, I'd be screwed. If I want to get off the 7 train at Roosevet Hights/Jackson Ave. so I can transfer to the the F train to get to Neptune Ave. so I can go to my favorite pizza joint after a Mets game, I'd miss my transfer if they remamed Roosevelt Hights something like "CW-11 WPIX-TV Station," just for a buck. I wonder how many novice SEPTA riders were confused by the Pattison to AT&T change.

No, you are completely right. I know what your are talking about with the BSL ads on TV. The whole "I Septa Philly" ad campaign is basically just a way to drum up ridership by making a packed train through South Philadelphia look like a big happy family lol. I don't like the AT&T Station sponsorship-thing either, though I'm pretty sure the complex between the old Spectrum and the Wells Fargo Center is now like "The AT&T Sports and Entertainment Complex" or something like that (though that just might be Septa's name for the Stadium Complex). Still, nothing was wrong with Pattison. I don't think the name change caused too many problems anyways, the station is at the end of the line.

When I was kid, Fern Rock was just a Broad Street Subway "station." All irony aside with it being surface-level. Then one day POOF, it's a "Transportation Center," Along with Olney.

When it comes to SEPTA parlance, I'm not quite sure. You're right, one thing the TC's have in common is multiple transportation modes (i. e. rail, subway, trolley, bus, etc.). Another thing would be a signifigant street level presences. Which explains why City Hall remains a "station." Then again the concept reminds me of when Wachovia rebranded all their branches "Financial Centers." At the end of the day it's still a BANK BRANCH.

Good analogy.

And my uncle actually grew up in the Olney/Fern Rock area. He tells me vivid stories of the trolley loop near Olney along the subway, the final days of Reading Terminal, and the original Fern Rock station, where he would board huge diesel trains downtown. Interestingly, he says the same thing about the Fern Rock. One day it was a quaint little station, the next it was moved down the line and became Fern Rock Trans. Ctr. He also remembers when the BSL terminated at Snyder, and you had to take a shuttle bus to get to Sixers and Flyers games. It's funny, I didn't even realize the BSL had ever been extended to the complex. I figured BSL cars ran to Municipal Stadium when it still stood. Fail lol.

[BuddCarToBethlehem]

And my uncle actually grew up in the Olney/Fern Rock area. He tells me vivid stories of the trolley loop near Olney along the subway, the final days of Reading Terminal, and the original Fern Rock station, where he would board huge diesel trains downtown. Interestingly, he says the same thing about the Fern Rock. One day it was a quaint little station, the next it was moved down the line and became Fern Rock Trans. Ctr. He also remembers when the BSL terminated at Snyder, and you had to take a shuttle bus to get to Sixers and Flyers games. It's funny, I didn't even realize the BSL had ever been extended to the complex. I figured BSL cars ran to Municipal Stadium when it still stood. Fail lol.

In fact, the trolley poles, and for a long time the tracks themselves, are still along Nedro to Park and then south onto Park down towards Tabor Rd.

I used to ride, on occasion, the train from Bethlehem to Reading Terminal. My Dad had season tickets to the Eagles from the late 60's unitl the mid '80's For games at Franklin Field, he would usually drive to Chestnut Hill and take the Penn Central (by that time) line into 30th Street Station and walk to the stadium. I often go to Penn games there, but I drive to Fern Rock and use the BSL and transfer to the Market-Frankford and get off at 34th St. Going home, depending on where I would eat after the game, if I'm closer to 34th St. or 33rd St, would determine whether or not I use the MFSL or a Subway-Surface route to get back to City Hall Station. When the Vet opened, he would drive to Fern Rock. He said that until the BSL was extended to Pattison, it was actually quicker to walk from Snyder Ave. to the Vet because there were too many people for the buses to handle. If your uncle grew up in Olney/Fern Rock, then he might remember the Route 6 Trolley. By my time, it terminated at the Cheltenham/Ogontz Loop, and we would see the PCC trolleys there. It had long stopped running to Willow Grove.

Here's a nearly 4 year old study for the Navy Yard extention:

http://www.navyyard.org/userfiles/file/ ... Sum_LR.pdf

The only thing that ran to Municipal/JFK stadium were trains for the Army-Navy game:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/army-navy.shtml
http://bobbalew.blogspot.com/2007/11/mo ... eport.html

Here's a postcard showing the BSL extention construction on the east side of S. Broad St. I don't know when construction began but this had to have been takin in 1971 or 1972
Using the link, you can see the trench for the BSL.
http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials. ... &year=1970

[DireFreights]

In fact, the trolley poles, and for a long time the tracks themselves, are still along Nedro to Park and then south onto Park down towards Tabor Rd.

I used to ride, on occasion, the train from Bethlehem to Reading Terminal. My Dad had season tickets to the Eagles from the late 60's unitl the mid '80's For games at Franklin Field, he would usually drive to Chestnut Hill and take the Penn Central (by that time) line into 30th Street Station and walk to the stadium. I often go to Penn games there, but I drive to Fern Rock and use the BSL and transfer to the Market-Frankford and get off at 34th St. Going home, depending on where I would eat after the game, if I'm closer to 34th St. or 33rd St, would determine whether or not I use the MFSL or a Subway-Surface route to get back to City Hall Station. When the Vet opened, he would drive to Fern Rock. He said that until the BSL was extended to Pattison, it was actually quicker to walk from Snyder Ave. to the Vet because there were too many people for the buses to handle. If your uncle grew up in Olney/Fern Rock, then he might remember the Route 6 Trolley. By my time, it terminated at the Cheltenham/Ogontz Loop, and we would see the PCC trolleys there. It had long stopped running to Willow Grove.

Here's a nearly 4 year old study for the Navy Yard extention:

http://www.navyyard.org/userfiles/file/ ... Sum_LR.pdf

The only thing that ran to Municipal/JFK stadium were trains for the Army-Navy game:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/army-navy.shtml
http://bobbalew.blogspot.com/2007/11/mo ... eport.html

Here's a postcard showing the BSL extention construction on the east side of S. Broad St. I don't know when construction began but this had to have been takin in 1971 or 1972
Using the link, you can see the trench for the BSL.
http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials. ... &year=1970

Ah yes. He talks about the Route 6 too, and the occasional trip to Six Gun Territory by streetcar and a Route 6 bus. Just a few years before the park and its surroundings were suburban-ized into a mall. The Route 6 is now just another fantasy. Restoring THAT to it's original glory would be another long shot. Imagine K-cars running to Fern Rock and Olney...a quick transfer to the BSL with one TransPass or a few tokens...and no more 22 buses!

Really great pictures and information, by the way. Those are just the kinds of stories and memories I get from my uncle all the time, when we talk about the glory days of public transportation in Philly. And I knew that the PRR had trains run to the Army-Navy Game, however for some reason I imagined the BSL to do the same. That's what fellow rail enthusiasts are for...details beyond that of your average historian.

[FLRailFan1]

A fantasy Commuter rail...

I have two for now...


New England:

My commuter rail is a Brewster to Providence commuter line. It will follow the Housatonic line from Brewster to Derby, CT, up to Waterbury, where it connects to a line from Winsted, CT, then east to New Britain then through Newington to Hartford, where it meets the rail from Springfield and New Haven, a line from Bradley International Airport/ Granby/Simsbury, a line from Old Saybrook / Middletown, and a trolley line from Hartford to East Hartford/ Glastonbury. , the commuter Raul would continue through East Hartford, where a line from East Longmeadow would joi through Manchester, Vernon, where a line from Ellington would join through to Willimantic, where it meets passenger/commuter trains from Palmer and New London, east to Plain ville where it would meet Worcester and Groton trains to Coventry RI to Providence.

The other would be a Sarasota/Brooksville/St Pete / Lake Wales route.