Railroad Forums 

  • Fantasy Commuter Rail

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #1027536  by fauxcelt
 
After telling my father and my sister-in-law about Crazy Texan Railfan's suggestions for a light rail network in Oklahoma City and vicinity, both of them approve and think Railfan's suggestions are sane and rational instead of "Crazy". My father was born and raised in Oklahoma City and my sister-in-law lived there for many years because she married someone from Oklahoma City. When her husband died, she moved back to Arkansas.

Laurence
 #1041400  by maddoxdy
 
First time here, Here goes.

I really wist they would get going and build the Schuylkill Valley Metro between the Norristown Transportation Center and Reading, PA. Starting at NTC going out to King of Prussia (big mall and new casino), into the median of US 422, out to Pottstown, and then Reading. The traffic on the 422 corridor is a nighmare. A similar one would be good out US 202 from Ning of Prussia. They are talking about extending eletricfication from Lansdale out to Telford on the Reading Company's Bethlehem Branch. It would be great to continue up to Allentown, Bethlehem & Easton. Maybe a link from Easton to NJ Transit and NYC.

Just my 2 cents.
Doug Maddox
 #1041667  by BuddCarToBethlehem
 
maddoxdy wrote:I really wist they would get going and build the Schuylkill Valley Metro between the Norristown Transportation Center and Reading, PA.

They are talking about extending eletricfication from Lansdale out to Telford on the Reading Company's Bethlehem Branch. It would be great to continue up to Allentown, Bethlehem & Easton. Maybe a link from Easton to NJ Transit and NYC.

Doug Maddox
The Schuylkill Valley Metro is pretty much a dead deal. I personally feel SEPTA proposed that ludacris light rail proposal because they felt it would never be built. Had they been serious in restoring sevice to Reading, they would've just proposed extending the Norristown Line (R6). It would've been much cheaper and require less of an environmental impact study since it would've used the existing Conrail/Norfolk Southern tracks. Alas, such was not the case.

I seriously doubt the Lansdale line will ever get that extension to the Pennridge area south of the Perkasie tunnel between Sellersville and Perkasie. If service were ever extended north of Quakertown, I wouldn't bet on it ever going to Allentown or Easton. In the 1970's it took around 20 to 25 minutes to get from Hellertown to Allentown and that was around an 8 1/2 to 9 mile trip (8.7 if Conrail & SEPTA were accurate on their timetable). I will concede that the many grade crossings in south Bethlehem (11 if I remember correctly in less than 1 mile from the E. 3rd St./Daly Ave. split to W. 3rd St. as the line approched Union Station) and poor track condition probably contributed to slow speeds. Right now the only way practical way to connect is extending the tracks south from Iron Hill yard to Saucon Yard (assuming that SEPTA service is extended that far north). Since the old Daly Ave/3rd St. ROW has been given to the city of Bethlehem, trains would have to be routed through Lehigh Valley Rail Management's Beth Intermodel facility to reach the old Lehigh Valley (now NS) tracks along the Lehigh River which would proablaby add another 1 or 2 miles to the trip if the Allentown stop is at the old Lehigh Valley Station location as it was in '78. The time and effort, if LVRM and NS were cooperative, seems excessive.

As for NJ Transit to Easton. I can't see any reason to extend services west of Phillipsburg. There isn't really any place to build a practical station and adjacent parking lot. To reach the old site of the CNJ station in Easton, another site as far west as West Easton, or any spot along the Lehigh Valley line on the south side of the Lehigh seems like a waste. It's only a few minutes more in driving time to Phillipsburg for people from outside of Easton, so why spend the money on a new station and rehabilitated track when it's more cost effective to build a bigger parking lot in P'burg? Heck, if I want to take the Raritan Valley line into Newark/New York, Annandale, not High Bridge, is more practical because of it's closer location to the I-78 exit. Same reason why I would drive to Ft. Washington instead of Lansdale.
 #1042053  by Backshophoss
 
This could happen,or remain a dream,NMRX running service to Socorro thru Belen(BNSF will say no)and Santa Fe to Las Vegas NM to replace
current bus "park+ride" setup(not with current governor). The "pipe" dream would be Santa Fe to Taos on the former DRGW narrow gauge
alinement.
 #1042067  by Adirondacker
 
BuddCarToBethlehem wrote:....cost effective to build a bigger parking lot in P'burg?...
Why should Phillipsburg have a big ugly parking garage so Pennsylvanians have someplace to park on their trip to New York? Or the traffic? Out in Alpha where the railroad crosses under I-78 seems much better. Keep in mind that SEPTA or whoever is the lead agency on this doesn't have eminent domain powers in New Jersey. I'm sure Alpha will love having the tax revenue from the privately owned garage.
 #1042136  by hammersklavier
 
Budd Car--This is about FANTASY commuter rail, not about critiquing others' ideas.

(P.S. There is an excellent space for an Easton train station along the former CNJ at 4th and Larry Holmes Dr. Which happens to be in walking distance to downtown.)

Anyway, some of my ideas (keep in mind this is all for commuter/regional rail):

New York
MNRR

East of Hudson
-Restore the Old Putnam Branch. From Brewster, head east at least to Danbury and possibly Newtown or beyond.
-Extend service on the Beacon Line. As a branch from the Hudson Line, to Hopewell Jct.; as a branch from the Harlem Line, to Poughkeepsie.
-Extend the Danbury branch to New Milford.
-Extend a short branch from the Danbury branch to Ridgefield.
-Fold Shore Line East into the New Haven Line.
-Extend a New Haven Line branch to Hartford.
-Restore service along the former New York, White Plains, and Boston interurban to White Plains. This may be treated as a branch of either the Harlem or New Haven Lines.
-Extend passenger service down the West Side Branch to Penn Station.
-Extend New Haven Line service to Penn Station via Hell Gate and Sunnyside.

West of Hudson
-Restore service on the former Northern Branch to Nyack.
-Restore passenger service on the West Shore Line at least as far as Newburgh.
-Restore service on one of the routes in the Walkill Valley (either the NYC one, or the L&HR one; the former better hits town centers.)

LIRR
-Extend the Port Jefferson Branch to Wading River.
-Restore service on the Central Branch through Levittown.
-Possibly restore the former Sag Harbor line(s) and service.

NJ Transit

to Hoboken
-Restore COMMUTER RAIL service on the Northern Branch (to Nyack).
-Utilize the former Erie Piermont Branch to link this route with the West Shore Line (see above).
-Extend service along the NYS&W main line from the Northern Branch to Sparta.
-Restore passenger service along the former New York and Greenwood Lake line, at least to Pompton or Erskine, if not all the way.
-Restore service along the Lackawanna Cutoff to East Stroudsburg.

to Penn Station
-Extend the Raritan Valley Line from High Bridge to either Phillipsburg, Easton, or Allentown. This will likely have to be done via the Lehigh Valley alignment.
-Restore passenger service via the CNJ's Southern Division to Toms River (Tuckerton with effort).
-Restore the former CNJ Highlands Branch.
-Restore the former Camden & Amboy main. For NYP trains, terminate at Burlington.
-Extend service along the former RDG from Bound Brook to West Trenton (SEPTA interchange).
-Extend service along the former CNJ and PRR Flemington Branches to Lambertville via Flemington.

CORE
-Build a new tunnel linking the Hoboken Division to the LIRR via the Bergen Arches to Fulton St. to Atlantic Terminal.
-Build a new tunnel south from Grand Central to Prince George, most likely via Fulton St. and Downtown Brooklyn.
-The Northern Branch of the SIRR becomes the west approach to this tunnel, feeding into the Raritan Valley Line.
-Build a new crossing of the Kill van Kull from the Chemical Coast Line to the Northern Branch via the Travis Branch. This feeds into North Jersey Coast Line at Perth Amboy.
-A branch of the Hudson Bay tunnel ending at Bay Head links the SIRR into the broader New York subway network.

Philadelphia
SEPTA

PRR Side
-Restore service along the West Chester Branch.
-Restore service along the Octoraro Line to Oxford via Kennett Square and Chadds Ford.
-Extend Paoli/Thorndale service to Coatesville or Parkesburg (with new interlocking).
-Convert the former RDG Chester Branch into a HSR bypass allowing Airport access. Extend commuter rail along this too.
-Restore Cynwyd Line service to Ivy Ridge. Extend it to a connection with the Manayunk/Norristown Line.
-Restore the Newtown Square Branch.
-Restore the Bensalem Branch as an access route to NE Phila Airport and associated industrial area (jobs).
-Extend a subway line down the Delaware Extension (25th St. Elevated).
-If crowding occurs on West Chester Branch, reopen Chester Creek Branch to alleviate it.
-Open Swampoodle Connection between Chestnut Hill West and Manayunk/Norristown Lines to cut CC travel time.

RDG Side
-Extend Manayunk/Norristown Line service to Pottstown via Phoenixville.
-Extend Lansdale/Doylestown Line service to Quakertown.
-Restore service on the Stoney Brook Branch from Norristown to Lansdale for Doylestown trains. They will utilize the former Cynwyd Line to enter CC via 30th St.
-Restore service on the Newtown Branch.
-Restore service along the Perkiomen Branch north to Pennsburg/Red Hill via Collegetown and Schwenksville.
-Extend Warminster Line service to New Hope (maybe).
-Convert Chestnut Hill East Line into a subway.

NJ Transit
-Restore service along the Millville Branch. Utilize the CNJ line from Vineland to Bridgeton as a branch line.
-Restore service along the former PRR Atlantic Division to Toms River. A branch to New Egypt via Fort Dix will also serve as a commuter rail line.
-Restore service to Pennsgrove/Carneys Point along the former PRSL Pennsgrove Branch.
-Restore service to Cape May via the PRSL line diverging at Winslow Jct.; branches from it will also serve Wildwood and Ocean City.
-Restore service along the PRSL Clementon Branch to Hammonton (rejoins Atlantic City Line at Winslow Jct.)
-Restore service along the PRSL Salem Branch.
-Restore service as a light rail line along the PRSL Grenloch Branch. This can then continue down NJ-42 to Sicklerville.
-Develop a heavy light rail line (like the one in Honolulu) to Cherry Hill, Mt. Laurel, and Medford via NJ-38-73-70.

CORE
-Focus NJ commuter operations, due to Delair capacity problems, in downtown Camden. Do this with the implementation of the 3rd commuter rail line.
-Once the NJ commuter operation is fully developed, electrify.
-Once electrification is fully developed, build a tunnel under the Delaware River to Market East Station.
-Grenloch/Sicklerville light rail will eventually take over the River Line's downtown Camden circulator network.
-Either extend Grenloch/Sicklerville light rail onto the new Cherry Hill line or build a subway from Center City Philadelphia linking to it (following the same alignment as the commuter rail tunnel, of course).

Baltimore-Washington
MARC
-Extend Penn Line service from Perryville to Wilmington.
-Branch from the Cumberland Line to Hagerstown.
-Restore commuter rail along the B&O line from Camden Station up the Patapsco to Frederick.
-Restore commuter rail along the former WM main line from Baltimore northwest, to Westminster. Interurban rail along this line to Hagerstown?
-Extend a branch of this line to Manchester via Hampstead. Extend further to York and Gettysburg?
-Restore commuter rail along the former line from Annapolis Jct. to Annapolis. Service would diverge and head to both Baltimore and Washington.

VRE
-Extend Potomac Line service to Richmond.
-Extend Manassas Line service to Culpeper. Possibly to Charlottesville.
-Restore commuter rail along line from Manassas to Front Royal.

CORE-Baltimore
-Convert the Howard St. Tunnel into a passenger tunnel. Link services heading north and west via the WM line(s) with those heading south and east via the B&O lines. Do this, of course, under the aegis of the Great Circle Tunnel.

CORE-DC
-Develop the D.C. Union-Alexandria Union corridor into a passenger thru system. Integrate converging MARC and VRE systems.
-Develop a freight bypass of this crucial route.

MISC
-Investigate the viability of a commuter line linking D.C. with Waldorf and/or North Beach. De novo rights-of-way are likely needed.

Boston
-Electrify the existing network.
-Shift stations closer to existing town centers.
-Build North-South Tunnel linking B&M and New Haven commuter systems.
 #1043594  by BuddCarToBethlehem
 
Adirondacker wrote:
BuddCarToBethlehem wrote:....cost effective to build a bigger parking lot in P'burg?...
Why should Phillipsburg have a big ugly parking garage so Pennsylvanians have someplace to park on their trip to New York? Or the traffic? Out in Alpha where the railroad crosses under I-78 seems much better. Keep in mind that SEPTA or whoever is the lead agency on this doesn't have eminent domain powers in New Jersey. I'm sure Alpha will love having the tax revenue from the privately owned garage.
To be honest, that's a good question, although a garage wouldn't be necessary. A parking lot would be sufficient. I wouldn't say that the area is run-down or blighted, but have you seen the area around the station? Some landscaping, new curbs, and light posts would make an improvement. As for traffic, have you ever tried crossing the "Free Bridge" during most weekdays? Although it would probably create more traffic, I'm not certain anyone would notice.

I like your idea about Alpha, makes access via I-78 easier (there I go again advocating for Pennsylvanians). I know that in the past P'burg officials have been supportive of rail service. Any idea about Alpha officials? SEPTA wouldn't have anything to do with it since Northampton County, not Bucks, is across the river. And thank our stars for that, since SEPTA is inept at best and corrupt at worst.

Of course, if money is no object, NJ Transit could restore both the CNJ line service between P'burg & Highbridge and the DL&W line from P'burg to Hackettstown. That way you can use Penn Station Newark and/or New York or Hoboken Terminal. I always liked PATH. If you want to go to midtown Manhatten from Hoboken I find it a little easier since I don't have to transfer on PATH or deal with the humanity at Penn Station.
 #1043636  by mtuandrew
 
BuddCarToBethlehem wrote:...I always liked PATH. If you want to go to midtown Manhatten from Hoboken I find it a little easier since I don't have to transfer on PATH or deal with the humanity at Penn Station.
For that matter, how about the fantasy of direct NWK-33rd trains on PATH? :wink: Or PATH from JSQ to Secaucus and the Meadowlands along railroad ROW?
 #1046059  by fauxcelt
 
All of you have such Big Ideas and such Grand Plans for commuter rail in the areas where you live that I feel like withdrawing my small suggestions for central Arkansas.

Laurence
 #1064862  by DireFreights
 
This thread hasn't been touched in a few months, but here's my fantasy system (more like list of improvements, imo) for the Philadelphia Area. And knowing Septa, this is strictly fantasy:

-Restore diesel service to both Reading/Wyomissing/Pottsville and Bethlehem/Allentown/Easton (yes I said Allentown and/or Easton). Trains would make all stops until their respective electrified termini (Norristown and Lansdale Trans. Centers) where then trains would run express to 30th St., as it has been traditionally done with these services when they ran to Rdg. Terminal. Restore the Stony Creek Branch (most likely no stops along this branch) and the Manayunk Viaduct to allow entrance to open-air 30th Street.
-Termination of electric service past Norristown Trans. Ctr. I'm sure managing one small track between three lines is a little too much. Diesel trains can serve Elm Street if it is really necessary, as well as Main Street. Parking at Norristown Trans Ctr. is most likely adequate.
-Extend Cynwyd to a larger park and ride or expand the current terminus. Extend service to Temple U. New bridges and such where line merges with Amtrak, new 52nd Street Station.
-Diesel express shuttle between New Hope and Warminster. There really is no need for any stops in between except for maybe an Ivyland or suburban New Hope type park and ride, but that just slows travel time.
-Restoration of Newtown down to Bethayres, where the line would merge with West Trenton OR a full restoration down to Fox Chase, skipping Walnut Hill. The latter plan probably makes more sense. Either way fully electrified.
-Restoration of service from Elwyn to West Chester. Fully electrified.
-Restore some stations on the Trenton Line as flag stops. Build a Morristown station.
-This is more NJT than Septa, but get the NJT West Trenton Line running. West Trenton station becomes West Trenton Trans. Ctr.
-Extension of the Thorndale Line to Coatesville and/or Parkesburg.
-Restoration of service to Newtown Square via the ex-PRR Newtown Square Branch and the Cardington Branch. Either with trolleys or a NHSL-style system. Trains run from 69th St. Terminal down along the Cardington Branch past Millbourne and down through Cobbs Creek, and then run up the Newtown Square Branch to a newly-built Newtown Square Trans. Ctr.
-Cut service back on the Chestnut Hill East Line to avoid the current redundancy. Build the Swampoodle Connection.
-Restore the Frankford Branch and electrify it. Create a Trans. Ctr. to serve both the El and to act as a terminus of the Frankford Branch. (I'm thinking a merger between of Margaret-Orthodox and Church stations).
-Restore the Bustleton Branch and also electrify it. Create a large park and ride near Northeast Airport.
-Extend the BSL past Pattison right up to the edge of the Wells Fargo Center parking lot. Create an "I-95" park and ride using the current space at the Wells Fargo Center. Space in the Navy Yard could also be used to provide ample parking.
-Create an Eastwick Transportation Center along the Airport Line to allow easy transfer to the Rt. 36 trolley.
-This also veers away from Septa, but get more NEC Amtrak service at major Septa stations. Have non-Acela trains stop at stations like Chester, Cornwells Heights, and maybe Levittown.

I'm maxed out right now, but I'm pretty sure this is every Philadelphia transit issue, and more, rolled into one big, expensive behemoth. At least I can fantasize a little.
 #1065488  by fauxcelt
 
You go right ahead and fantasize all you want, DireFreights. The rest of us certainly have fantasized and fantasized and fantasized on this discussion thread.

Laurence
 #1065494  by BuddCarToBethlehem
 
DireFreights wrote:-Extend Cynwyd to a larger park and ride or expand the current terminus.
-Extend the BSL past Pattison right up to the edge of the Wells Fargo Center parking lot. Create an "I-95" park and ride using the current space at the Wells Fargo Center. Space in the Navy Yard could also be used to provide ample parking.

I'm maxed out right now, but I'm pretty sure this is every Philadelphia transit issue, and more, rolled into one big, expensive behemoth. At least I can fantasize a little.

How about ceasing Silverliner service on the Cynwyd line. Restore the old Pennsylvania "Norristown Branch" as another line for the Norristown High Speed Line. Use third rail service from Norristown Transprtation Ctr. directly to 30th St. Station and/or Suburban Station via the Manyunk Bridge.

As for the BSL use the junction at Erie Ave to go under Erie Ave. to Rising Sun Ave. follow Rising Sun to Luzerne Ave. Then at Luzerne Ave. follow Reading's old North Penn Branch line ROW (that was the line that went down American St. to 2nd St. and at Schmidt's Brewery turned on to Germantown Ave. to Front St. ending at the Reading's docks on the river.) to Roosevelt Blvd. Run the line out Roosevelt Blvd. to Woodhaven Road and split a spur off the blvd. at Bustleton Ave and run that to an expanded Somerton Station.
 #1065753  by DireFreights
 
BuddCarToBethlehem wrote:
DireFreights wrote:-Extend Cynwyd to a larger park and ride or expand the current terminus.
-Extend the BSL past Pattison right up to the edge of the Wells Fargo Center parking lot. Create an "I-95" park and ride using the current space at the Wells Fargo Center. Space in the Navy Yard could also be used to provide ample parking.

I'm maxed out right now, but I'm pretty sure this is every Philadelphia transit issue, and more, rolled into one big, expensive behemoth. At least I can fantasize a little.

How about ceasing Silverliner service on the Cynwyd line. Restore the old Pennsylvania "Norristown Branch" as another line for the Norristown High Speed Line. Use third rail service from Norristown Transprtation Ctr. directly to 30th St. Station and/or Suburban Station via the Manyunk Bridge.

As for the BSL use the junction at Erie Ave to go under Erie Ave. to Rising Sun Ave. follow Rising Sun to Luzerne Ave. Then at Luzerne Ave. follow Reading's old North Penn Branch line ROW (that was the line that went down American St. to 2nd St. and at Schmidt's Brewery turned on to Germantown Ave. to Front St. ending at the Reading's docks on the river.) to Roosevelt Blvd. Run the line out Roosevelt Blvd. to Woodhaven Road and split a spur off the blvd. at Bustleton Ave and run that to an expanded Somerton Station.
I like your idea for the NHSL a lot. Maybe combine it with a restored 52nd St. Station rather than through to 30th Street, like a PRR-side Fern Rock Trans. Ctr. equivalent. And that BSL extension would be phenomenal! Imagine taking it even further and having trains run up Bustleton Ave./Pike all the way to Feasterville, and create a Trans. Ctr. with suburban surface routes. Even better, have trains continue north a little up Bustleton from there, and then run up Bridgetown Pike to the right. The line continues until it merges with the Trenton Cut-Off, running over Woodbourne to Oxford Valley. THAT would be great, though a little lengthy.
 #1065782  by BuddCarToBethlehem
 
DireFreights wrote:Maybe combine it with a restored 52nd St. Station
I like that thinking, but the only practical connection would be the Route 10 Trolley, and that's something like a 30 minute or so trip to reach City Hall. I'm a lazy man. I prefer one seat rides.

The more I think about it. Don't wait until the BSL reaches Bustleton Ave. for the spur. Split it off at Oxford Cir. and go under Castor Ave. Build a Trans. Ctr. at trackless tolley Alma Loop. Continue out Castor Ave until it reaches Bustleton Ave. at Fox Chase Rd. Then out Bustleton. Best part would be if Oxford Circle gets rebuilt as normal intersection.
 #1065801  by DireFreights
 
BuddCarToBethlehem wrote:
DireFreights wrote:Maybe combine it with a restored 52nd St. Station
I like that thinking, but the only practical connection would be the Route 10 Trolley, and that's something like a 30 minute or so trip to reach City Hall. I'm a lazy man. I prefer one seat rides.

The more I think about it. Don't wait until the line reaches Bustleton Ave. for the spur. Split it off at Oxford Cir. and go under Castor Ave. Build a Trans. Ctr. at trackless tolley Alma Loop. Continue out Castor Ave until it reaches Bustleton Ave. at Fox Chase Rd. Then out Bustleton. Best part would be if Oxford Circle gets rebuilt as normal intersection.
I like one seat rides too. But I don't know how the coordination with Regional Rail in terms of ROW to run the NHSL right through to 30th would work, considering that there are regulations and such. Plus, then doesn't there seem like there a few too many options to get downtown? I could take the Manayunk Line, which follows the PRR Schuylkill Branch for a majority of its distance, if I wanted to get to downtown with a one-seat ride. Or I could just take the NHSL to 69th, where I transfer to the El and get off downtown. Though that involves a separate fare.

How about running it from PRR's 52nd Street straight down 52nd Street to the Market-Frankford's 52nd Street Station? Rename PRR's 52nd Street "West Philadelphia Trans Ctr." The MFL 52nd Street becomes "52nd St. Trans. Ctr." Trains then run down 52nd to the MFL station, then along the MFL ROW to 69th St. I know it completely deviates from your original plan and now is an entirely new concept, but this could serve those in West Philadelphia as well as Bala-Cynwyd, and provide an alternate route to 69th and lines running to and from there. Build those other proposed NHSL extensions, such as to KOP and Valley Forge, and the Norrsitown High Speed Line is now the Norristown High Speed System.

And on the BSL: Is the Alma Loop at Cottman & Castor behind the Firstrust Bank building? I am actually very familiar with that area. What about at the Bells Corner Loop behind the Dunkin' Donuts, where Castor becomes Bustleton? How about another Trans. Ctr. there. And I'm assuming then the line then runs up to Somerton as originally planned.