South Carolina and Passenger Rail

[Bob Roberts]

We all know about the historic intransigence of the state of South Carolina towards passenger rail funding of any kind. Its still just rhetoric but the current Governor (Henry McMaster) has been talking positively about passenger rail lately.

The most publicized discussion was of McMaster suggesting on multiple occasions that he would like to see a Charlotte Light Rail extension to the proposed (still under negotiations) new Carolina Panthers practice facility in York County (near Rock Hill). Here is one write-up on his mentions: https://www.postandcourier.com/opinion/ ... e05a0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(I don't really understand why the Panther's facility justifies LRT and I think Rock Hill is a bit too far away from Charlotte for LRT to be a good choice. Regardless of my opinion McMaster certainly enjoyed talking trains as part of the Panthers facility recruiting process).

The less publicized discussion was from last week’s Charlotte Metropolitan Transit Commission meeting. The current Charlotte mayor said that McMaster said this at a regional transit meeting last month:

it was pretty tough to have the South Carolina governor come out and say I want to have rail from Rock Hill to Columbia, and we've been talking about rail to Matthews for years. And you know, the way he sounded -- now, I have to admit, they're all of one mind down there, they're all Republicans, and they all came together and they said we're going to have this facility, we're going to build it, we are going to figure out how to connect with going down to Columbia. And I think we can do that; it just takes more of us to do it together.

https://charlottenc.gov/cats/about/boar ... 190424.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (quote at the top of page 22)

This is the first I have heard about this intercity service (and it is possible that Mayor Lyles has jumbled the story — I can’t find any confirmation of the statement). But, assuming the quote is accurate, there is some indication of a thaw in SC's attitudes towards rail transportation.

[electricron]

Having one politician - all of whom are always promising things they can not deliver by themselves - does not make that rail line.

Interesting, the destination city the Governor wanted on his rail line being Columbia, the state capital, is not on the existing Crescent rail line between Charlotte and Atlanta.

Add that the Georgia legislature wants to study a HSR line between Atlanta and Savanah, it makes one wonder what the chances are for seeing a higher Amtrak train service between Atlanta and Charlotte will ever be? It appears to me that the local politicians have a different view on it than the national politicians.

[nctrains]

Interesting find! I dug into this a bit and was able to find Governor McMaster's speech on Youtube. There doesn't appear to be any mention of extending rail to Columbia. The passenger rail discussion was, as you mentioned, a possible light rail extension from south Charlotte to Rock Hill as part of the new Carolina Panther practice facility and other development being added in that area. It's possible that Mayor Lyles and he had a sidebar conversation however.

As a Charlottean, I would certainly welcome more intercity passenger service. That being said, I would expect at Charlotte to Atlanta via Greenville, S.C. to be the most likely option before a Columbia to Charlotte route is entertained.

[SouthernRailway]

Thanks for sharing this! While I-77 between Charlotte and Columbia has far less traffic (and congestion) than I-85 across the Upstate, Columbia is a big enough city that surely it could support a train.

[CarterB]

Columbia to Charleston would seem to be a natural, but not sure how bad the ROW is now.

[Anthony]

Columbia to Charleston would seem to be a natural, but not sure how bad the ROW is now.

Maybe extending this proposed route to Atlanta via Augusta would be a good idea, as it would open up more connections with the Crescent, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor.

[electricron]

Rock Hill SC is 25 miles away from downtown Charlotte. That is stretching a light rail train distance more than the average, but that almost already exists in San Diego.
San Diego's light rail line to Tijuana is 20 miles away from downtown San Diego, and it stops at the border. LA's Gold Line when completed to Montclair in 2026 will be over 41 miles away from downtown LA. 25 miles does not seem all that far after all. They would have at least two choices for routing it, along the existing freight railroad tracks or along I-77.
The question to be asked is how the light rail extension would be funded? Most of the way to Rock Hill is in North Carolina, only the last few miles would be in South Carolina. Somehow I do not believe South Carolina taxpayers will want to pay for new light rail tracks in North Carolina. So that leaves the question is how far North Carolina taxpayers will want to pay extending the train south? Will they be willing to pay for the entire way to the state line?
Anytime borders between states, and boundaries between agencies within the same state are crossed, responsibilities of who pays and does what gets very, very complicated. and it gets even more complicated when you add a freight railroad company into the mix.

[Jeff Smith]

Columbia to Charleston would seem to be a natural, but not sure how bad the ROW is now.

Maybe extending this proposed route to Atlanta via Augusta would be a good idea, as it would open up more connections with the Crescent, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor.

Just came into possession of a Southern Railway System SRS Timetable dated 10.27.63 (only two years younger than me LOL). Two SR trains ran Charlotte to Columbia to Augusta over the Columbia Division: the Augusta Special (train 37-31/32-38), and a no-name train, numbers 31 and 32, which would probably be the combined run on the weekends? Both originated at WUS on SOU rails, originating from NY and BOS on NYNH&H and PRR rails. From DC it came down via Greensboro and Lynchburg (the Crescent route?) Running time Charlotte-Augusta 6 hours 25 minutes; from Charlotte to Columbia: 3 hours 10 minutes; Columbia to August 2 hours 40 minutes. 35 minute (!) stop in Columbia.

As for Charleston, the current Star heads south to Savannah from Columbia, meeting up in Savannah, with the Meteor and Palmetto which do make Charleston. Southern did have a route Columbia to Charleston, via Orangeburg, but it was freight only, as was the route to Savannah.

I had been hoping to find info on the Nancy Hanks when I got the Timetable, but no joy.

Checked my ACL TT as well; no routing although they served some of the cities involved.

[Bob Roberts]

from Charlotte to Columbia: 3 hours 10 minutes

Gezzz, that is brutal. Even with considerable padding it’s more than twice as long as driving.

The Augusta timing was much better (but its a pretty minor corridor)

(nice find)

[CarterB]

SouRwy did have passenger service (Carolina Special Cinci to Charleston via Ashville Spartanburg Columbia) and others, and a Union station in Charleston. Last run 1962,

[Alex M]

The best bet for SC would be Charlotte to Atlanta thru the upstate, maybe a Palmetto type service on the S line serving Columbia. In SC The powers that be tend to look at rail as freight, period. The Carolina Special, or as the locals called it the Carolina Creeper, made its last run in October 1962. I rode it a year earlier from Summerville to Branchville.

[electricron]

Both Charlotte and Atlanta are huge cities not within the borders of this state. Why should the taxpayers of South Carolina subsidize passenger train services for two other states? That’s like asking Delaware to subsidize a train from Philadelphia to Baltimore? That is not going to happen.

[Bob Roberts]

Henry McMaster (governor of SC) tweeted this after meeting with NC gov Roy Cooper in Charlotte today:

Roy, let's chat more about expanding light rail to @RockHillSCCity)

You can see the full “context” here: https://twitter.com/henrymcmaster/statu ... 31777?s=21

[mtuandrew]

I hope South Carolina has a robust pork industry, because their pigs are flying

It’s clear that SC is not ready to dive into heavy commuter rail nor regional Amtrak service, but I’m not surprised Gov. McMaster doesn’t seem to know the limitations of LRT or the difference between heavy and light rail. Most beginning transit advocates don’t know the difference either; it’s just a passenger train, some of which are smaller or larger than others.

This is an instance where a modern interurban system would make sense. Half-hourly 70 mph service to Rock Hill with limited stops outside of Charlotte proper, and since the ROW would be government-owned it would be a placeholder for future HSR.

[electricron]

It’s clear that SC is not ready to dive into heavy commuter rail nor regional Amtrak service, but I’m not surprised Gov. McMaster doesn’t seem to know the limitations of LRT or the difference between heavy and light rail. Most beginning transit advocates don’t know the difference either; it’s just a passenger train, some of which are smaller or larger than others.

This is an instance where a modern interurban system would make sense. Half-hourly 70 mph service to Rock Hill with limited stops outside of Charlotte proper, and since the ROW would be government-owned it would be a placeholder for future HSR.

I'm confused because you did not define what a modern interurban system is.

The existing line in Charlotte is light rail using Siemens S70 vehicles. Their max speeds is 65 mph, but CATS limits them to 55 mph. They also require 750 Vdc overhead power. That's not quite 70 mph being 15 mph slower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_Blue_Line
Technically, these a light rail trains under FTA regulations.

Of course, they could follow the DCTA scheme and use Stadler EPA Tier 4 certified diesel power GTWs. DCTA's GTWs are capable of max speeds of 75 mph, but are limited by DCTA to 60 mph. At least they can achieve your desired speed of 70 mph.
https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/gdct0909e.pdf
Technically, these are light commuter rail trains under FRA regulations.
DCTA runs their GTWs to a DART light rail station, where passengers must transfer to a light rail train. Check out how at Trinity Mills Station on your favorite map app. The two different type of trains as far as the USDOT regulators are concerned do not share any tracks.
Which means they also must have their own maintenance facilities.
Stadler builds all their GTWs in Europe, if you need Buy America vehicles, they make diesel powered FLIRTs in Salt Lake City. TexRail uses them already. They are also FRA regulated trains.

In either case, tracks laid for 55, 60, 65, 70, or 75 mph trains are not going to be an excellent rail corridor for 125-150-200 mph HSR trains.