Railroad Forums 

  • STAINLESS STEEL IN EUROPE

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #1200322  by RAY
 
Why are there so few stainless steel rail passenger cars in Europe?
 #1200548  by RAY
 
Uh ... I don't think so!
Countless comments have been made in America about the superior lifespan characteristics of stainless steel passenger rail cars. That being true, why is European application of same so comparatively minimal?
 #1201663  by David Benton
 
I don't think stainless steel is the best material for cladding passenger cars.
As Kaitoku states, it is a "porous" surface, for want of a better description ( not a gloss surface such as a modern 2 pot paint ). Dirt ,grime and graffiti all stick to it better than a shiny painted surface.
Its heavier than aluminium, and of steel , although some would say you can use thinner stainless than steel , because you dont have to allow for rust. Corten steel does not rust if used properly.
European trains usually have quite elaborate paint jobs , and if your going to paint , you might as well use Aluminium or steel.
 #1201748  by mtuandrew
 
I think the dichotomy is also due to the difference in railroading culture between Western Europe and Japan, and North America and Russia. (Places like China, Australia, Eastern Europe, and India fall somewhere in the middle, in my eyes.)

In North America and Russia, cars have to stand up to intermingling with 150 ton(ne) freight cars, which forces heavy frames and heavy skins. That forces a higher price point, which forces North American railroads to use them for longer, and requires more durable materials to make sure these cars won't fall apart. In that kind of market, an all-stainless car is a good investment, particularly when there may not be ready money for another investment in cars.

In Western Europe and Japan, there is more continual money for railcar investment (or so it seems to my eyes), far less intermingling of freight and passenger equipment, and lighter trains all around. After World War II, the systems of both areas were destroyed and rebuilt from nearly the ground up, which meant both a huge demand for new cars to be cranked out with minimal cost and material use, and few heavy legacy cars as in North America and Russia. The proportion of car usage on a daily basis is far smaller than the US, and the need for public transportation is correspondingly much higher. Finally, the rate of advancement in railroad design meant that it was much easier for a car design to become obsolete. Couple that with the generally-milder climates of those two areas, and lightweight aluminum and carbon steel cars make a lot of sense. Stainless would have been just too expensive.
 #1201758  by electricron
 
Not every railcar manufacturer in America built stainless steel railcars. Budd did, but they owned the patent and made it difficult for other manufactures to do so. There's a reason why many railroads built smooth side and fully painted passenger railcars in the 1940s and 1950s, their railcars were made of steel and needed the paint.
That's probably also why European railcars of that time weren't made of stainless steel too, i.e. they didn't want to pay Budd the patent.

Ever wondered why musicals almost always have original music scores? It's the same basic reason, the producers don't want to pay every song writer their royalties. It's far better to hire songwriters and use their original songs the acting company owns.
 #1201969  by kaitoku
 
Tokyu Railcar in Japan had the Budd license for stainless cars, they built them until the end of the 1970's, when they shifted to "beaded" stainless steel cars. A lot of them have since been re-sold to second hand operators because of their durability, but a good number are still running for their original operators, fluting and all (and nearly indestructible). Now Tokyu Railcar is known as J-Trec (and owned by JR East Railway Company) and they still make stainless steel cars, and in fact the majority of their output is in that material, not aluminum. Up here in Hokkaido, almost all (95%) new stock in stainless steel, as aluminum doesn't hold up well to the harsh winter climate (6 months long) we have.
 #1202740  by SouthernRailway
 
I recall that seeing some SNCB ones in Belgium. Personally I find the smooth-sided cars that are more prevalent in Europe much more attractive, and maybe that's the reason (shared by railroad purchasing departments).
 #1261449  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. SRY, here is likely the penultimate of European Stainless Steel cars:

http://www.citedutrain.com/en/collectio ... mistral-69" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These cars were once assigned to various Trans Europe Express (TEE) trains; most notable the Paris-Nice 'Le Mistral' and the Paris-Brussels 'North Star' (defer to others for the French translation). They were built with Budd shotwelding (license) technique.

I rode such cars during 1971 Paris-Marseilles; I can't recall more of a daytime 'luxotrain' than this.

While the cars apparently have been withdrawn from European service; some are in service on the Cuban rail system. I'd dare say its a 'heads or tails' if the air conditioning works (photo courtesy Seat 61).

Image
 #1261488  by mtuandrew
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. SRY, here is likely the penultimate of European Stainless Steel cars:

http://www.citedutrain.com/en/collectio ... mistral-69" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...and the Paris-Brussels 'North Star' (defer to others for the French translation).
L'Etoile du Nord (which happens to also be the Minnesota state motto - Star of the North.)
 #1261544  by Milwaukee_F40C
 
I am familiar with the ways of graffiti. Transit entities that use stainless steel cars actually cite its effectiveness in deterring graffiti. Bare stainless steel may be more porous or grained, but spray paint bonds better to most railroad car or "automotive" paint coatings. The process of removing spray paint from painted surfaces is also more difficult because extra care must be taken to avoid damaging or clouding the car paint. A stainless steel car can be scrubbed or pressure washed quickly using solvents.

In the 1980s when New York was running both carbon steel and stainless steel cars, writers clearly preferred the smooth surfaces of the painted carbon steel cars as opposed to the ridgie stainless steel cars since the most elaborate work was done on the painted cars. When the system "washed" the painted cars with solvents, they also came out looking terrible.