Railroad Forums 

  • TGV 357mph stopping distance

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #1165262  by Lackawanna565
 
The last few days I've been looking at footage of the TGV on youtube. Mainly I've been looking at the one hit the speed record. I was curious how many miles it took to stop it. I read it took 48 miles to stop it. Is this true? I was thinking between 5 and 10 miles to stop.
 #1165383  by kaitoku
 
Lackawanna565 wrote:The last few days I've been looking at footage of the TGV on youtube. Mainly I've been looking at the one hit the speed record. I was curious how many miles it took to stop it. I read it took 48 miles to stop it. Is this true? I was thinking between 5 and 10 miles to stop.
Well, given that the speed demonstration was a one-off stunt to see how fast the train could go, rather than how fast it could stop safely (which would have been more impressive, technically), the braking distance was likely between the high end of your estimate and the 48 miles. Perhaps that 48 figure was the length of line cleared for braking, given very wide margins.

For reference, the Tokaido Shinkansen requires 4000m to stop from 270km/h (167mph), in emergency braking mode.
 #1182546  by 25Hz
 
Full regenerative/dynamic plus full friction brakes plus simply letting the air slow it down i'd wager from 357 on a straight flat track to be about 5-7 miles. It was fitted with taller wheels, so that helps a lot with braking force per RPM. If they just took the power off but no active brakes, i think you'd get that higher number.

I think emergency stop would wear the brakes out at that speed to the point where it could only do it once.
 #1184270  by ACeInTheHole
 
25Hz wrote:Full regenerative/dynamic plus full friction brakes plus simply letting the air slow it down i'd wager from 357 on a straight flat track to be about 5-7 miles. It was fitted with taller wheels, so that helps a lot with braking force per RPM. If they just took the power off but no active brakes, i think you'd get that higher number.

I think emergency stop would wear the brakes out at that speed to the point where it could only do it once.
Throwing it into emergency at that speed would also flat spot the wheels severely.. Bad news at 300+ mph
 #1184418  by mtuandrew
 
Patrick Boylan wrote:What's anti skid? How would it prevent flat spots without increasing stopping distance?
If I understand correctly, it is essentially the same as an antilock brake system in a car that modulates the brakes, maximizes rolling friction, and reduces flat spotting.
 #1184516  by mtuandrew
 
Patrick Boylan wrote:and what about my 2nd question, How would it prevent flat spots without increasing stopping distance?`
Like this. :razz:

More or less, a train has more ability to slow down if its wheels are still rolling at the very limit of their adhesion (before they break loose and skid), than it does for them to skid. The rolling friction coefficient limit of steel on steel (or any material on any other material) is higher than the sliding friction coefficient limit, if I remember Physics I correctly after 10 years.
 #1184582  by taoyue
 
mtuandrew wrote: More or less, a train has more ability to slow down if its wheels are still rolling at the very limit of their adhesion (before they break loose and skid), than it does for them to skid. The rolling friction coefficient limit of steel on steel (or any material on any other material) is higher than the sliding friction coefficient limit, if I remember Physics I correctly after 10 years.
You mean static friction -- not rolling friction.

Static friction is what keeps objects from sliding. However, once an object has already started sliding, kinetic friction acts against the motion and prevents it from sliding forever. Kinetic friction is lower than static friction (for standard materials). Think about sliding a cardbox box on a floor -- it is harder to get it started moving, than to keep it moving.

Wheels are confusing because static friction applies even when the wheel is rolling. But it's still doing the same thing -- acting to prevent the wheel from sliding. But if you exceed the resistance offered by static friction, then the wheel will start slipping, and kinetic friction will take over.

Rolling friction acts against a rolling wheel (but not a sliding one). Just like kinetic friction acts against a sliding wheel (but not a rolling one). The rolling friction for solid objects is much, much, much lower than kinetic friction -- which is why the invention of the wheel was such a great thing.

The coefficients of friction for steel-on-steel are:
  • Static friction: 0.74
  • Kinetic friction: 0.57
  • Rolling friction: 0.001 to 0.002
In other words, you can apply 30% greater deceleration force if you can prevent the wheels from locking up. The effect on stopping distance is magnified, because stopping distance scales as the inverse-square of deceleration. It takes 70% more distance to stop if the wheels lock up.

Antilock braking also helps you to maintain steering ability when driving a car. This doesn't matter quite as much for trains.
 #1184614  by David Benton
 
I agree with both explanations. I learn't the hard way, driving old tractors down steep muddy tracks. If you locked the wheels up you were in big trouble, the tractor would speed up, not slow down. I guess the effect was more noticeable,because of the relatively slow speed and heavy weight of the tractor, but it is drummed into all new car drivers here, locking the wheels increases the stopping distance.
I believe some locomotives allow some wheel slip on starting a heavy train. Again, the turning wheel gives more grip than a stationary wheel.
 #1184624  by mtuandrew
 
Thanks for the revised explanation, taoyue - I knew there was something a bit off with the term "rolling friction" in the way I used it.

Regardless, a quick internet search shows that TGVs do have antilock braking systems, as I'd imagine most modern high-speed trainsets do. That probably means the Acela doesn't :wink:
 #1189349  by 25Hz
 
In the video you hear the person say "they've cut the power" which to me translates as "throttle off and full dynamic braking", as applying the air brakes at that speed would likely immediately lock the wheels no matter how fancy your computerized anti-slip system is.

I am not sure the exact type of brakes used, if they are magnetic or friction, but in either case dynamic braking would put far less stress on the brake rotor & axles than either of those.