NLX Northern Lights Express HSR MN Duluth-Twin Cities

[dgvrengineer]

I agree with the lack of connection to the EB, but I was thinking more in the future. With serious discussions about a second Chicago to St Paul train the chance of being able to time it with the Duluth train is more likely. I'm not sure what times are being proposed for the Duluth service. If it is planned to be 2 round trips daily(Former GN Gopher & Badger type service) or just once daily round trip. An afternoon St Paul departure for Duluth would certainly be able to connect with a morning Chicago departure.
Perhaps a compromise station could be built where the 261 Group stores their equipment, which is at the wye where a potential backup move would have to be made to reach the Target station.

[Tadman]

Both endpoints are a frustrating question.

In MSP, you can use SPUD, Target Field, or maybe Midway. Or would it make sense to have the train run through to the south suburbs as it's a very regional play? The airport also makes a lot of sense given its status as a Delta hub. Currently the light rail connects downtown Minneapolis with the airport, but it's 45 minutes to downtown.

I discount connecting with any Chicago trains, as that is one heck of a long ride subject to delays. A 3 hour Duluth train on top of an 8 hour Chicago train makes for a very long day, considering there would be at least an hour in between to cushion for delays. Using SPUD would mean charging ticket prices to pay for a big shiny depot, and that's not competitive.

In Duluth/Superior, trackage has been rationalized a bit too much. The route goes through Wisconsin and the city of Superior before crossing the river and going back into Minnesota to terminate at Duluth. The problem is, the direct bridge (Underneath I-535) is gone so trains must detour due west over the Grassy Point draw bridge, then aim northeast back into Duluth to terminate at Duluth Station. Duluth station also serves as a museum and boarding point for North Shore Scenic, and there are usually trains parked there.

In short, the problems with Duluth terminus are detour, drawbridge, museum. This could mean an hour or more to travel 4 miles as the crow flies. I'd suggest terminating the train in Superior, the weak sister of the two. There is plenty of parking and it's easy to reach over the I-535 high bridge. A ten minute connecting van or bus would work great. But try getting Minnesota politicians to terminate a train in Wisconsin - not likely.

[mtuandrew]

DGRV: why not just terminate a Morning/Afternoon Gopher/Badger at Minneapolis after a station stop in St. Paul? No backup needed, and solves the connection problem neatly. That situation can be re-examined if such a train goes on to North Dakota.

Tad: I see what you’re saying about terminating in Superior, but imagine intentionally terminating in Evanston rather than Chicago. It’s not a fast route, and people in the know would ask for a pickup at SUP (assuming there is a Superior station) but the average Duluthian or visitor should only spend another half-hour aboard as long as Amtrak can hit 30 mph. I’m not sure the rail route via Rices and Connors Points would be that much faster, but it would definitely be more liable to shipping delays.

In the Cities, Midway is a non-starter for Amtrak. It’s either Minneapolis or St. Paul, preferably both, or you won’t get a penny of state funding. Maybe it’ll be reused as a commuter rail stop eventually.

Interesting idea about an MSP run-through. The track doesn’t work that way either, not since the MILW pulled up its Fort Snelling Branch and everything north of 28th Street, but the Metropolitan Airports Commission could keep a right-of-way clear for a future tunnel.

[Tadman]

imagine intentionally terminating in Evanston rather than Chicago. It’s not a fast route, and people in the know would ask for a pickup at SUP (assuming there is a Superior station) but the average Duluthian or visitor should only spend another half-hour aboard as long as Amtrak can hit 30 mph. I’m not sure the rail route via Rices and Connors Points would be that much faster, but it would definitely be more liable to shipping delays.

That's half the analogy. There's really no impediment to getting downtown from Evanston, both the CNW and MILW lines are reasonably direct and fast. Consider these two analogies:

-Would you rather get off the CZ in Oakland and ride BART to downtown San Francisco, or ride through industrial trackage around San Francisco Bay?
-Would you rather ride the Cascades all the way to downtown Vancouver with the interminable waits for BN and CN at the bridge and the wye into the station, or get off at the casino and ride adjacent Skytrain downtown?

I've been on the Cascade waiting for the bridge and the freights to clear up, it can add an hour to a train that already arrives at a late hour. It's very frustrating to sit there and watch Skytrain come and go for 30-45 minutes, knowing those people will be downtown in fifteen minutes and I won't for an hour.

Interesting idea about an MSP run-through. The track doesn’t work that way either, not since the MILW pulled up its Fort Snelling Branch and everything north of 28th Street, but the Metropolitan Airports Commission could keep a right-of-way clear for a future tunnel.

It would certainly take some doing, and that means lots of money on a project like this. I think the most important question is "where are the riders coming from?". Are they government-related business coming in to Saint Paul from the north woods? Are they vacationing suburbanites from the south side of MSP? Is it mining and shipping business people coming to MSP for banking and legal needs? That should color where the endpoint is.

[mtuandrew]

If you can convince people to accept a bus ride from an impressive downtown station to what will very likely be an open platform with a minimal building in Superior’s outskirts, be my guest. Me, I’ll take the extra 20 minutes to be walking distance from my hotel, the AMSOIL Center, and Grandma’s

(Superior could be a very good park and ride location though, for those same reasons.)

[eolesen]

I've spent time in Duluth.... The express bus will do fine, but I'm struggling to see why there'd be demand for 150+ train seats a day assuming only one frequency, let alone 300+ for multiple frequencies.

[mtuandrew]

I've spent time in Duluth.... The express bus will do fine, but I'm struggling to see why there'd be demand for 150+ train seats a day assuming only one frequency, let alone 300+ for multiple frequencies.

That’s a fair point. During its first year, NLX will never be overfilled except on summer festival weekends, and probably won’t ever have more than 100 riders southbound out of Duluth on an average weekday morning. It’ll be up to MnDOT and partners to increase that number.

Two obvious steps I see:
-express bus service from Duluth Soo Line Station to KDIA, meeting every train. It may not get many transfers, but it’s a way for Delta to through-ticket passengers without having to clog gates at KMSP - and for NLX to chisel a little money out of Delta. It would help a lot to through-ticket, even if one needs to self-transfer via the Blue Line to the train station.
-seamless bus transfers to Cloquet, the Range, Two Harbors, and (WisDOT funded from Superior) Ashland/Bayfield/Bad River Rez. They would have sparse weekday ridership, less the Range and more the others, but ideally be packed on the weekends because of carless vacationers.

[Tadman]

That's bizarre.

I suppose you could connect eastbound from an early Northstar commuter train to the Empire Builder if they shared any stations; it’s impossible either way to connect from the westbound Builder. It’ll be nice when the second CHI-MSP hopefully terminates at Minneapolis Target Field.

Very important point and this is why I also advocate the upcoming Duluth train should not be operated by Amtrak and/or interlined with the Builder. It's simply not worth pretending the Builder is compatible with the Duluth train or the commuter trains. The Builder is often 3-8 hours late, by which time one could've rode the Hound to Chicago AND BACK. Instead, it would be wise to build practical and useful regional system around MSP, including Duluth, Saint Paul, Red Wing, and the MSP airport.

Consider the ridership case: Assuming a Builder at capacity can hold maybe 300 people, and perhaps 30-50 get off at MSP. Perhaps 10-20 of those are potential commuter/Duluth riders if the train were to arrive reasonably on time most of the time. Contrast that with regional trains of 3-6 high density cars capable of holding 75-100 riders and you have 500-ish riders, per train, per day. Why way-lay those hundreds and hundreds of riders for 10-20?

[Tadman]

A few additional thoughts -

Should the MSP hub be the airport or Target? Or both?

Should the Duluth train terminate in Superior with a coach to Duluth (or uber or personal car?) Or go to Two Harbors...

[mtuandrew]

A few additional thoughts -

Should the MSP hub be the airport or Target? Or both?

Should the Duluth train terminate in Superior with a coach to Duluth (or uber or personal car?) Or go to Two Harbors...

There’s no rail hub at MSP airport, and it’s unlikely there will ever be anything but light rail transit. The last nearby heavy rail, a Milwaukee Road spur that used to be the main line, got removed in the 1980s.

For MSP, a dual-hub system makes sense. It’s silly to invest millions in St. Paul Union Depot without using it for Red Wing, Hudson, and Forest Lake trains, as well as the Minneapolis-St. Paul crosstown train and Amtrak intercity service. Plenty of lines to go out of Target Field Station.

The MSP-Duluth service needs to terminate in Duluth politically and for ridership; if a rider wants to skip the 30 minute terminal ride in favor of a 15 minute car-share, that’s on them. Two Harbors is a good destination for the North Shore Scenic.

[ryanch]

Ha! I had to look at a map to realize what you meant by "politically." Yes, though Superior might otherwise make sense, it would be hard to convince Minnesota to take on the full subsidy of a train that terminated in Wisconsin.

My sister heads to Lutsen, MN in a couple weeks, to ski. This is completely off-topic, but I was surprised there was a significant Midwestern ski area I'd never heard of. Another 90 miles beyond Duluth.

No way a train is ever heading that way though. Lutsen's entire county has a population of 5,000, about 1/1000th of the population of "the other" Cook County, in IL.

[Tadman]

I agree that it's a political mess to terminate that train in Superior. But if you follow the area rails closely which I do (it's honestly one of the most fun places to watch trains in the summer anywhere), they took out the Rice Point drawbridge which means it's probably an hour or more for a train to get from Superior to Duluth. I bet it takes a freight transfer a couple hours.

Look at this map: https://dsmic.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 2x34-2.pdf

Originally the trains came from Minnesota, entered Wisconsin about twenty miles south of Superior, stopped at Superior Station right were the "(BNSF)" is, and proceeded due north over the Rice Point bridge into Duluth. If the bridge was okay, it was a brief move. Now they would have to turn left and cross the Grassy Point bridge, then back five miles into Duluth, across quite a few other carriers. The area is known for long transfer drags, which would seriously hamper a passenger train.

[ryanch]

I do see the complications. Looking at your map, I'm also not clear how they'd get on the Grassy Point bridge. Is there a connection obscured by the words "17th Street" or would they have to enter via the two CP yards?

Google seems to show a connection to the CN, which might allow a more direct route, through the Pokogama Yards. I think I can see track and ties in the satellite view, but who knows what condition it's in. it's not shown on your schematic map, so I guess it's likely decommissioned, but perhaps not that expensive to reinstate.

[Tadman]

Next you’ll tell us that South Shore should terminate in Hammond because it takes too long at Kensington Interlocking

Dont get me started with a history lesson there. In short, they once terminated at Kensington for a transfer. My favorite little railroad, although NOPB and MSE are catching up fast.

I do see the complications. Looking at your map, I'm also not clear how they'd get on the Grassy Point bridge. Is there a connection obscured by the words "17th Street" or would they have to enter via the two CP yards?

Google seems to show a connection to the CN, which might allow a more direct route, through the Pokogama Yards. I think I can see track and ties in the satellite view, but who knows what condition it's in. it's not shown on your schematic map, so I guess it's likely decommissioned, but perhaps not that expensive to reinstate.

It's like a little Chicago, and it's been made worse by mergers and abandonments over the last 20 years. Your point about the connection is well taken, and after looking it up on google maps, it appears what is labeled as the "Coal line" has a direct north to west connection to the BN line to Grass Point Bridge, but the main line does not.

You could go through Pokegama yard, but then you cut out Superior (and any hope of Wisconsin funding) and have to deal with CN, axle counts, dispatching, etc... not fun.

Worth nothing about the area: Duluth accurately views themselves as the wealthy cousin to the scruffy Superior. This is reflected in the available stores and amenities, as well as home prices and rents. If the train solidly served downtown Superior, Wisconsin might be more apt to give good funding to this operation, as it would enhance commerce in Superior.

[mtuandrew]

Worth nothing about the area: Duluth accurately views themselves as the wealthy cousin to the scruffy Superior. This is reflected in the available stores and amenities, as well as home prices and rents. If the train solidly served downtown Superior, Wisconsin might be more apt to give good funding to this operation, as it would enhance commerce in Superior.

Also worth noting, Duluth’s immediate metro area (including Carlton, I believe) has 3x the population of Superior’s immediate metro area (including Pokegama and South Range.)

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Note to Moderators: a large part of this conversation should be in the Northern Lights Express thread. If there’s more generalized Minnesota regional rail topics, dump it in General Passenger and I’ll deal with it.