Signaling & Dark Territories

[ShortlinerFan]

I was wondering if a route can have signals without a dispatch, or is a dispatch required when a route have signals? Also, how does Dark Territories usually work?

[DutchRailnut]

If a track was signalled in ABS (one directional) it could technically be all automatic except one thing, someone (dispatcher) would need to let a train enter this territory (switch) so somewhere someone needs to make a decision right..
Dispatchers basically have only control over entrace or crossover switches (the CP's) everything in between is automatic.
Same in manual block a dispatcher or block operator controls blocks via a train order/form D / form M or whatever its called on differet railroads.
instead of train tripping signals, the crew reports clear of limits, which could be switch/block limit/ or leaving territory at end of manual block.

[Jtgshu]

If a track was signalled in ABS (one directional) it could technically be all automatic except one thing, someone (dispatcher) would need to let a train enter this territory (switch) so somewhere someone needs to make a decision right..
Dispatchers basically have only control over entrace or crossover switches (the CP's) everything in between is automatic.
Same in manual block a dispatcher or block operator controls blocks via a train order/form D / form M or whatever its called on differet railroads.
instead of train tripping signals, the crew reports clear of limits, which could be switch/block limit/ or leaving territory at end of manual block.

I believe there is a system that was used on NJT's Pascack Valley Line in the past (Im not qualified there, but from what I remember of it), where it was sort of an automatic system without dispatcher input (well, they could, but it wasn't necessary). It used head blocks, and a train would enter it, and then I believe if it was out of cycle (meaning an extra, non scheduled move) a train would enter the head block, and the system would hold the train fora few minutes, while it figured out if there was something ahead, and if not, it would automatically give it railroad by changing the direction of traffic. The line is single track and used to only have inbound trains in the AM and westbound trains in the PM, so there was little chance of conflicting moves. where there was freight customers, they used yard limits designation

The whole system has since been retired, as the line had passing sidings installed and an increase in service.

Like I said, Im not too familar with what was there, but I THINK thats how it worked. It was a VERY old system, going way back to the Erie RR days.

[DutchRailnut]

still sounds like automatic signals to me

[SooLineRob]

Sounds like NORAC's "Signalled DCS" to me ... LOL! Formerly known for years as:

APB, Absolute Permissive Block.

An ABS signal system, in use on a single main track, with movement authorized by timetable/train order. Train Dispatcher had no control over the signals. (This is my description, NOT a rule book definition).

Unless a railroad is a VERY small operation, such as "Father" is Engineer, "Son" is Conductor, "Mother" is Crew Caller/Customer Service/Yardmaster, and "Wife" is travelling Clerk, EVERY main track will be under a Dispatcher's control whether it has signals or not.

I'm not real clear on the OP's question, however.

[wigwagfan]

Also, how does Dark Territories usually work?

Since nobody has addressed that part...

In my experience (from the SP) there are generally two types of dark territory - ABR (absolute block register) and DTC (direct traffic control). ABR is used on very lightly used routes and requires a register book kept at a depot or other location. The crew working the route signs the register and has absolute authority within the limits. Occassionally there could be joint usage (i.e. a train and a hi-rail) and I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but it did happen.

DTC is largely obsoleted by Track Warrant Control today but divided up a route into signed blocks. A dispatcher or a track warrant would grant authority for a train to occupy one or more blocks, or to have track and time in a block. The train would release the blocks back to the dispatcher when clear, and the dispatcher could then give the block to a waiting train if needed. However again in my experience, even most DTC controlled routes didn't see much usage, but because trains would operate out of different locations ABR would not be feasible (where would the register be located?)

Track Warrant Control is generally how dark territory works today and is like DTC except the railroad is not defined by blocks; the authority is granted by station locations or mileposts.

And lastly there are yard limits which aren't dispatched and requires constant diligence by crews working within the limits. I've heard of at least one occassion here in Oregon where a train operated by one railroad strayed onto another railroad's line (but within contiguous yard limits) - thus delaying a home road's train that entered the yard limits only to find the track blocked by a train he wasn't expecting. But since the foreign train was within yard limits first they were within the right to have the train there. (I'm sure there were some heated management arguments, however.)

[DutchRailnut]

For occupancy of yard limits the dispatcher or block operators permission is needed.
so it should never be a surprise.