Railroads & utility corridors

[yellowdoyle]

Hello all, first post.

I am curious if rail tracks are even built ABOVE underground utility lines? Or are their other instances where a railroad track shares an easement with other utilities, be it aboveground or underground utilities? Specific examples are appreciated. [I am curious about the United States, and CA in particular, btw.]

Now I can see high pressure gas pipelines being an issue, but how about fiber optic lines, or other types of low-pressure pipes? That seems like it may not be a big no-no....or even aboveground telephone lines perhaps?

I am trying to find out about sharing utility corridors, and any types of utilities that railroads may share with. Google searching was not of much help unfortunately. So if you guys can provide any discussion (and links if possible) that would be greatly appreciated!

[NV290]

Hello all, first post.

I am curious if rail tracks are even built ABOVE underground utility lines? Or are their other instances where a railroad track shares an easement with other utilities, be it aboveground or underground utilities? Specific examples are appreciated. [I am curious about the United States, and CA in particular, btw.]

Now I can see high pressure gas pipelines being an issue, but how about fiber optic lines, or other types of low-pressure pipes? That seems like it may not be a big no-no....or even aboveground telephone lines perhaps?

I am trying to find out about sharing utility corridors, and any types of utilities that railroads may share with. Google searching was not of much help unfortunately. So if you guys can provide any discussion (and links if possible) that would be greatly appreciated!

In virtually all cases, the railroads have been there LONG before the utilities came along. Most major rail routes that utilities follow have been there for upwards of 100 years, long before Fiber Optics, gas pipelines, major power distribution, etc. With that in mind, the utilities are generally always added along side the tracks. There would be no way to install them UNDER the tracks. And there would be no reason to. It would be nearly impossible to access them for repairs and things like pipelines would never be able to last long with that kind of weight over them. I cannot imagine any railroad who would allow anything to be installed under the tracks simply because it would require the tracks to be removed and then would make reapirs a nightmare. I recently saw a gas piepline being installed that had to cross under train tracks and they had to use a horizontal boring machine because the railroad would not allow any disruptions of service with trenching. Most fiber networks are actually installed by a special train with a car that has an arm that swings out and digs the trench and lays the conduits at the same time. Do a google search, you will see pics. High voltage power lines and pipelines are generally installed as far from the tracks as possible to limit vibration and risk of damge from derailments.

Pretty much all i see if Gas pipelines, fiber optics and occasionaly, sewer/water lines and phone lines buried along the right of way. And of course, above ground, it's high voltage power transmission lines. But thats it. Never seen anything installed UNDER the tracks and never heard of a new rail line installed obver any type of utility.

[yellowdoyle]

Great reply, thank you for the information.

What you say about the timeline makes sense, and I figured as much. So it looks like if they do share a utility corridor, the situation is the utilities were added AFTER the tracks, and are off to the side to prevent vibration problems, access problems, etc. Perhaps that is why my google searches concerning utilities under any tracks didn't turn up anything eh?

Thanks again.

[FarmallBob]

So it looks like if they do share a utility corridor, the situation is the utilities were added AFTER the tracks, and are off to the side to prevent vibration problems, access problems, etc.

That's pretty much it.

The CSX "Chicago Line" (former NYC main) here in western NY was once a 4 (and even 5) track line. It's now only 2 tracks. The outer edge of the ROW where the rails have been lifted is now occupied by multiple buried fiber optic cables.

According to warning signs posted periodically indicate the these lines are variously owned by AT&T, Sprint and WilTel. I presume these outfits lease corridor space for their cables from the railroad. As part if the deal I suspect one of 'em also provides voice/data communication for railroad operations (the railroad's lineside wires disappeared very shortly after the fiber optics were buried).





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There's apparently also a county sewer main buried along one stretch as evidenced by this sign:

[NV290]

As part if the deal I suspect one of 'em also provides voice/data communication for railroad operations (the railroad's lineside wires disappeared very shortly after the fiber optics were buried).

That is generaly the deal. I know on alot of the mainlines we run on, in addition to being paid for the leased space from the lines, the RR gets a few fibers for there own use free of charge for a set number of years. I heard it was 15 years for us. Then they deduct money from the leases payments after that for us using fibers.

Lineside wires dissapearing around the same time is partly fiber, partly the invention of the coded track circuit. The rails themselves basically replaced the pole lines as they are now the "pole line" in terms of the automatic aspect of the signal system. The only thing the fiber optic network is used for is getting the commands from the dispatching office to each control point and for communications such as radio and bussiness phones. I am sure there are other uses for other systems as well.

[Ken W2KB]

And of course, above ground, it's high voltage power transmission lines. But thats it. Never seen anything installed UNDER the tracks and never heard of a new rail line installed obver any type of utility.

Many railroad rights of way do not have the width to allow for transmission level voltages. 69Kv subtransmission can often be built, and sometimes 115kV or 138kV transmission, but rarely higher. Keep in mind also, lines cannot be built too close to the edge of the ROW where the neighbor's trees could come too close to the lines, risking a flashover, and even if there were no trees, every part of the structure has to be above the railroad property in any event.

In many places electric companies grew from trolley/interurban lines and former line ROW were retained for transmission once rail service was abandoned.

One significant example of railroad/utility joint use is the utility transmission overbuild on much of Amtrak's NEC catenary structure from NJ through Maryland. The local utilities have transmission lines built on the catenary support structure, and make lease or license payments to Amtrak for the privilege. Generates a fair amount of income for Amtrak.

Just as is the case with railroads, utilities that own or have rights of way easements often convey the right to telecommunications, natural gas, petroleum product and water or sewer companies to locate in their rights of way. These conveyances are usually in the form of centerline easements, and like the case with similar railroad agreements, are for locations near the edge of the utility right of way so as to not interfere with electric transmission structures that typically are located in the center of the right of way.

[Jtgshu]

How much of a hinderance to adding capacity to lines are these lineside and underground systems?

Was the RR leasing out part of there real estate a few decades (or less) ago to these utilities in the area of former main tracks a little short sighted and going to hurt them in the future when capacity might need to be added back to the line?

Are there agreements with the RR and utilities that if the RR wanted to use that land for a track once again that the systems would be moved (at the RRs expense or split or whatever)?

[GSC]

JT, I'm sure in some cases there will be problems with "shortsightedness" on the parts of railroads for leasing out land that was once under trackage, when they suddenly need it again. A "duh moment" where someone else will be blamed and fired. But then again, I don't see a lot of re-tracking going on. Some, of course, but not huge amounts nationwide.

[Ken W2KB]

How much of a hinderance to adding capacity to lines are these lineside and underground systems?

Was the RR leasing out part of there real estate a few decades (or less) ago to these utilities in the area of former main tracks a little short sighted and going to hurt them in the future when capacity might need to be added back to the line?

Are there agreements with the RR and utilities that if the RR wanted to use that land for a track once again that the systems would be moved (at the RRs expense or split or whatever)?

It will vary with what rights were conveyed. I believe that the Amtrak nee PRR utility overbuild can be terminated by the railroad. But in most cases, a utility will not expend the high costs of construction without a long-term or permanent easement. As a practical matter, in most cases, there are no practical alternatives to a utility with respect to moving facilities.

[David Benton]

how wide is a railroad easement ? does it vary with the number of tracks , or is it a standard width . Here , i beleive it would genrally be a Chain wide , ( 22 yards? ) .