BANNER TEST!

[RearOfSignal]

Bringing up an old topic that has since sparked my interest. Do these barricades actually shunt the circuit in CTC/ABS territory or is the restricted speed enforced by cutting the circuit some other way? I presume they (the railroad) could place a barricade on main tracks, not just sidings or yards?

[DutchRailnut]

On MNCR the banner testing can only be done on a track where restricted speed is in force,
yard tracks, last block before a red signal, and entire GCT interlocking and platform tracks.

[sd80mac]

1. I only saw the banner stop twice. Once on ex CR chicago line in Batavia NY and another one in Clinton Oh (that explain why it TOOK FOREVER for both trains to crawling toward to the banner stop also both of them stopped way before the spot, forcing TM to walk a good distance to the trains). They used the shape of body with 2 flags in "hands" and red on "chest". That's what CSX is using it. I was told that CR used the banner flag that goes across the track with "BANNER" on flag or some words I cant recall.

Is there a sign code that I could use to let crews know in advance? In both tests, I wasn't able to give crew head-up... I know that gesture of binolars and pointing at the locations means mgts are in the weeds for other reasons. Not sure if it applies to the head-up for banner stop.

2. Someone told me or left a story in email listgroup that a CR engineer blew through banner flag in Froniter yard (I believe) then he blasted at these guys who set up the banner flag about how unsafe to set up a flag across the track. Obviously, he, along with conductor, were gone from CR. Anyone know or heard about this story?

[RDGTRANSMUSEUM]

Never heard of the Frontier yard story. We were always getting banner tested on the old Reading railroad between Reading and Phila,Pa. As soon as you got a bad automatic signal,you were on the lookout. Always passed the test.

[conrail_engineer]

2. Someone told me or left a story in email listgroup that a CR engineer blew through banner flag in Froniter yard (I believe) then he blasted at these guys who set up the banner flag about how unsafe to set up a flag across the track. Obviously, he, along with conductor, were gone from CR. Anyone know or heard about this story?

If it's the same incident, I know the engineer. Pulling out of Bailey, going west, it's an uphill grade to a curve and a dwarf signal just around it, on a steep downgrade. The pukes set up a banner around the bend, out of the engineer's line of sight...he had to big-hole it to stop for it; and he cursed them richly.

That was several years ago, and he didn't get taken out of service for it. That was back when you could still do things like that...the way he was telling it, they laughed at him for losing his temper.

[sd80mac]

2. Someone told me or left a story in email listgroup that a CR engineer blew through banner flag in Froniter yard (I believe) then he blasted at these guys who set up the banner flag about how unsafe to set up a flag across the track. Obviously, he, along with conductor, were gone from CR. Anyone know or heard about this story?

If it's the same incident, I know the engineer. Pulling out of Bailey, going west, it's an uphill grade to a curve and a dwarf signal just around it, on a steep downgrade. The pukes set up a banner around the bend, out of the engineer's line of sight...he had to big-hole it to stop for it; and he cursed them richly.

That was several years ago, and he didn't get taken out of service for it. That was back when you could still do things like that...the way he was telling it, they laughed at him for losing his temper.

Thanks for clarify!! I loved the stories from that small group of email listgroup. That one is nolonger active and I missed it!! I'm sure that u know what group I meant...

[Tadman]

I agree that excessive testing is uncalled for. But the way the law works is this: A company cannot just lay down rules telling employees to be safe. If an outsider is hurt as a result of violation of a rule, that outsider is likely to sue the company. If the company doesn't enforce the rules, and that injury was caused by a violation of the rules, the company is liable. So the company absolutely must enforce the regulations, not just put them in place.

Now excessive testing, especially twice in one trip, is kinda overboard. It's like when a cop tailgates you for ten miles, gets off the highway, and gets right back on. Leave me alone, I'm enjoying going 8 over the limit...

[Engineer Spike]

I have heard that the emergency valve on the fireman's side does not record to the event recorder. If you are going to come up short, put on a service application, then have someone pull the lever. This way if you are asked, you can say that it must have been a kicker.
When I worked for BN, we had a Road Foreman who like to turn out signals, especially on a foggy night. On the line I was working, all of the sidings were unbonded, so one got a restricting signal in. One night I was running in heavy fog. I got an approach, and I knew that I was going in. The train holding the main had called me. I got down to 2 or 3 mph. The dispatcher called to see if I was moving, so I explained the fog. That was all I ever heard.

[NV290]

I have heard that the emergency valve on the fireman's side does not record to the event recorder. If you are going to come up short, put on a service application, then have someone pull the lever. This way if you are asked, you can say that it must have been a kicker.

Newer event recorders, like those on most modern locomotives will record which valve in the locomotive was used. You can simply look behind the conductors valve and see the wire coming from it. That is for the event recorder and to trigger the EOTD to dump on locomotives so equipped. Most railroads want to know who dumped the train first so they can tell who was paying attention and in the case of a rule violation such as an overspeed, there is no disputing who complied with the rules about dumping the train when the engineer loses control. That is why even when an issue arises that requires you to dump the train because of something ahead (Signal, Improperly lined switch, person, obstruction, etc) the Conductor should dump his valve too. This was there is no disputing that the Conductor was paying attention.

As for older locomotives, any road forman worth his salt can tell where the Emergency application came from. Remember, older recorders monitor the Brake Pipe and Equalizing reservoir pressure, not handle positions on the valve. There is no way to record the physical position of a 26 or 24 type brake valve handle. Brake pipe pressure always follows equalizing reservoir pressure except in emergency. They can tell where the emergency application came from by simply looking at the time differential. If you go to full service and then the Conductor valve is pulled, that air is being vented from the same line that goes to the engineer brake valve. So the drop will be instantaneous. The huge spike of pressure loss will give it away. And that is if you only have one loco. If you have multiple units? It's even easier. Because the lead unit will show the loss of brake pipe pressure before the trailing units do. So it would be impossible to blame a kicker in the train. A kicker in the train would show the trailing loco's dumping before the lead loco.

[NV290]

Bringing up an old topic that has since sparked my interest. Do these barricades actually shunt the circuit in CTC/ABS territory or is the restricted speed enforced by cutting the circuit some other way? I presume they (the railroad) could place a barricade on main tracks, not just sidings or yards?

Most barricades used for rules testing are simple plastic free standing barricades with a red light and/or flags. A trainmaster simply sets it in the gauge in a place where a train should be going restricted speed. Usually it's in or beyond an interlocking where the dispatcher has given the train permission to pass the signal and is therefore required to run restricted speed. They are made of platsic so they are inexpensive and will not damage equipment if run over.

Depending on how involved they want to get, Officials will sometimes get help from C&S crews to drop signals on trains or they will shunt a track circuit at an automatic signal to give crews a Stop and Proceed or Restricted Proceed. Most of it is done from a bungalow or wayside equipment enclosure. I have had C&S crews cut power to signals, cut out road crossings after we get stop and flags, etc. But a company official would not be the one doing these things on their own. They would need help from the actual C&S department. The liability would be off the scale if they did it themselves.

Barricades do exist that will shunt the track circuit, but these are designed for protecting MOW crews and equipment. But i have yet to see them used by officials for testing. They are made of aluminum and are expensive. No railroad would risk the cost and damage.