Newb here with questions.

[Xavier82]

Hello ladies and gentleman,

I'm reaching out to you pro's because I am unable to find the information myself. I have but 2 questions. If I am in the wrong forum I apologize and would appreciate being directed to the right one.

1. If I owned a school bus and wanted to drive it on a still maintained but a very inactive railroad, are there conversion kits that I can install on the vehicle to allow my bus to drive on the road one minute and the rail the next. Who sells them? cost?

2. I would assume that their would be alot of access and permit issues with this scenario. Is their a website to find out who owns the rail? Is there a precedent of a rail company having an agreement with other companies on such matters? How would I create that agreement with them?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Thanks again.

Chad

[Jeff Smith]

Welcome to the site. I know some railroads allow "speeders" but I have to admit, this is a first for me. I've moved your topic to our operations forum; they'll have more of a handle on it.

[Xavier82]

Thanks much!

[Gadfly]

Because you say that there is a live track that *could* be used, I doubt the railroad would allow trespassers or non-railroad equipment on their lines. I sure wouldn't. The liability is too great. The public has no clue as to railroad operations, and I can just see someone suing for big bucks if someone gets hurt. One must expect movement on any track, at any time, from any direction according to the Rules.

Not to be unkind, but so many people look at the railroad as a "toy", or a place to play. It is too easy to get hurt---OR DEAD--to allow such a thing. Now I know that some clubs and individuals have negotiated agreements for fully abandoned trackage, but any track that *may* be live at some point may not be occupied by interlopers. Me, I would be the spoilsport; I would not permit such a thing on my ROW so that I could be sued for damages or injury. Short answer? I sure wouldn't do it!


GF

[ferroequinologist]

If I owned a school bus and wanted to drive it on a still maintained but a very inactive railroad, are there conversion kits that I can install on the vehicle to allow my bus to drive on the road one minute and the rail the next. Who sells them? cost?

It sounds like you're looking to make your own hy-rail. Essentially, they are powered by standard rubber wheels, but also have rail wheels that can be used to guide the vehicle on rails. I don't know where you could buy one exactly, but I suspect the price is a few thousand dollars. There is some mechanical stuff to raise and lower the rail wheels, which is what's complex. Here's one off the rails, and Here's one on the rails. As you can see, they're mostly railway maintenance vehicles. Looking up railways maintenance equipment companies wouldn't be a bad start. This thread has some info, including this website. It seems to sell completed vehicles, but that isn't a bad place to start asking questions.

I would assume that their would be alot of access and permit issues with this scenario. Is their a website to find out who owns the rail? Is there a precedent of a rail company having an agreement with other companies on such matters? How would I create that agreement with them?

Companies do sell each other access rights, but you're not a railroad, you're a dude with a bus. I assume they could let you drive around on it (probably for a fee), but I'm not sure they want someone other than a railroad on their rails. There's a lot of risk there, if you're around when they don't think you will be or they forget. Having non-employees on the rails is probably a no-no. I suspect you'd have better luck with small railroads, rather than a big class 1, but you might not have any luck with either. To find out what railroad owns a bit of rail, try looking up records at a library or town hall, or asking online here.

[mtuandrew]

Good afternoon, Chad, and welcome to the forum! I'll be moving your post to the Railroad Operations subforum shortly, but wanted to answer it first:

Do Not Do This, no matter whether it looks abandoned. If it is well-maintained, that probably means it sees at least a train every few days. If you meet a train or are even spotted on the tracks, the least of your worries is that you can get arrested for trespassing. At worst, you could cause your own death, as well as those of the train crew and innocent bystanders. You have the right idea about contacting a company first.

That said:

1. The kind of kit you're looking for is called a "hy-rail", "hirail", or "roadrailer" kit. There are a few manufacturers, but I can't think of which off the top of my head.

2. Most companies will not allow private operators on their rails, even in conventional locomotives with conventional cars. Semi trucks or school buses are less likely yet, because they are much less stable on the rails, don't generally show up on the signal indications, and are much more likely to be damaged in accidents with loose railcars (this does happen) or trains that are where they shouldn't be. If you have a particular stretch of rail in mind and are able to afford Step 1 (hyrail kits aren't cheap) your state DOT or provincial MoT probably has a map that indicates all of the railroads' owners in that territory. After that, it's a matter of contacting them through their websites. Again, don't expect permission, since railroads would then assume the liability for your being there and potentially causing an accident.

In short, please don't go forward with this idea.

[Desertdweller]

Xavier,

Before you spend any money on a hi-rail conversion, you first need to do some research on where you would run this thing, and find out for sure who owns the track. Then you would need written permission from someone high enough up in the owning company to authorize your use of the track. If you get that far, be prepared to sign waivers releasing the owner from liability.

You need to keep in mind that railroads are private property, that they are owned by businesses for the purpose of making money. If they are to be useful for that purpose, they have to be physically maintained, and access to them closely controlled. If they are not used to make money (running trains on them) it is unlikely they would be maintained in a state that would allow you to run a bus on them.

I would say that if you are hoping to run your bus on active track, you can probably forget it. When I worked on the DM&E railroad, I got a report of a guy in a speeder running over our main line in western South Dakota. When I tracked him down, he told me he thought he was running on rail-banked track (ex Milwaukee Road) controlled but not used by Dakota Southern. He was lucky he did not get hit by one of our freights. We also had a close call, almost hitting a hi-rail truck owned by a contractor we had hired. He was given permission to work on the track, protected by a Form B track bulletin and red flags. When his time expired, he used his hi-rail to retreive his red flag and was almost struck by a train.

On the other hand, when I worked for the Misissippi and Tennessee, we closed half the railroad for a Saturday to let a speeder club operate over it. No problems.

You also need to consider you are hoping to operate a vehicle much larger than a Volkswagon-sized speeder.

People who wish to operate hi-rail vehicles on working railroads have to be given permission by the dispatcher or whoever is the controlling authority. They also need to be certified to do so by the FRA. They need to have the proper safety equipment, a proper radio, and can prove they know how to use these things. And most importantly, a good reason.

If I were you, and determined to do this, I would try to find a stretch of truly abandoned track. Go to the county and find out who owns it (hint: see who is paying property tax on it). Get written permission and sign a waiver. Be absolutely certain there is no way a train could show up. Personally, I would walk the entire track checking for missing rails, filled-in crossings, etc. Best make sure the physical connection to the rest of the railroad network is severed. Look for derails, switches locked against you, fences put up across the track, trees growing up between the rails or above the track where you would hit them, etc. In some states, abandoned right of way reverts to adjacent landowners. If an adjacent landowner owns the track, you would be trespassing to use it.

I personally would not even try this. If you want to run down railroad track, buy a speeder and join a speeder club and do it the right way.

Les

[Rbts Stn]

Xavier:

In what country are you located? US rules are very stringent (as you've seen, above, and for good reason), but in other countries you might be able to get away with more. At a huge risk to yourself and others, of course.

[Gadfly]

Like you, Les, such would raise the hackles on my back to think there's someone out there on the RoW. The public has little way to know the operating rules and the Form B's and 23A's (on Southern), about clearing the time of scheduled trains. To them the railroad is a 'toy', a game like one the kids put up in the basement. It's not taken seriously. Its why you see people strolling down the RoW as if they OWN it. It is NOT a highway for the public's amusement. Let's say someone takes a pseudo-Hyrail out on the line and decides to "open it up". Then he turns the thing over (derails) damaging Lord knows what (switches, switch points, frogs, adjacent property--not to mention getting hurt or killed. What if he DOES suffer a "headlight meet" because he doesn't know (and the dispatcher doesn't know) the track is live? Then what? You can't un-dead the dead!!!!!!!!!!! There's been real railroaders KILLED in motor cars due headlight meets, ignoring the "time" of a freight (must clear up 5 minutes prior), mis-reading a line-up. Honestly, NO Class I railroad I know of would allow non-employees (except for contractors) on their lines), and even then the contractors usually have a railroad man with them. I am dead set against it for safetys sake. I know there are branch lines or abandoned trackage where the fanatics can indulge their hobby, but *I* sure wouldn't permit it on my railroad. But its not up to me.

Truly, to the one who wants to do this, I can't imagine WHY someone would spend THOUSANDS of $$$ on a school bus, then turn around and spend thousands more to engage in a fantasy. This is the fanaticism that I often speak of! I was against it when NS converted to Hyrails and I loaded hundreds of motor cars onto trailers for rail foamers wondering just what in the h*ll would someone want with a Fairmont motor car?

Tell ya what................Save your money (and, perhaps, your life), and mail those thousands to me and my poor railroader's fund.!!!!! I could certainly put it to good use!!!!!

GF

[DutchRailnut]

As for that Bus, it would be concidered a track maintenance vehicle and can only be occupied by operator and MofW employees.
transporting passengers on rail is strictly regulated and would have to comply with CFR 49-238

[Gadfly]

As for that Bus, it would be concidered a track maintenance vehicle and can only be occupied by operator and MofW employees.
transporting passengers on rail is strictly regulated and would have to comply with CFR 49-238

DRN,

Tho I didn't mention it, I thought about it previously. This would bring up a whole new equation to the mix. I was wondering to what purpose would someone make a HyRail out of a school bus except to transport people.

Mr hopeful HYRail, as I said, I mean no harm, but you asked for advice, and you got it from the REAL railroaders as you asked! DON'T DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!
If I ever see such an obviously illegal (and dangerous) contraption on Norfolk Southern, you better know I'm callling the dispatcher! A SCHOOL BUS??? REALLY?

GF

[Xavier82]

Gentleman,

This was exactly what I was looking for when I originally posted. I appreciate all of your tips and advice. Let me give you a clear purpose of why I would like to do this.

The me and why:

I am from old coal and steel country Johnstown, PA. I am an Captain aviator on C-130 airplanes with the United States Air Force currently deployed (again) to Afghanistan AOR. In my civilian life I own a couple of companies. The one in which my original post regards is an outdoor recreation and whitewater rafting outfitter. We have our buses to shuttle people to and from the river put-ins and take outs. We run a few rivers and creeks around the area commercially which is why I like to have our buses road worthy.
Johnstown has been pretty decimated economically from a city of 80,000 in the 70's to about 28,000 today but the surrounding area has grown a little. Johnstown has the Allegheny Portage National Railroad, Horseshoe Curve, the Staple bend Tunnel (first railroad tunnel in the states) and much much more in railroad heritage extending out every single valley around Johnstown. Johnstown also had the first street car mass transportation system in America. Although it's gone now, there is still a car in San Francisco running called the Johnstowner from our home. Our goal is to transform Johnstown from an industrial giant to outdoor mecca (and for good reason), every outdoor adventure sport imaginable out there is minutes from city center. Johnstown has it all. Including railroad track.

My goal:

There is a line, that runs along the right side of the Stonycreek river (looking down river) out of Johnstown and dead ends in Central City, PA about 20 miles away. I think there is a train once a week (or month) at it's highest traffic periods in a year. We would like to offer our guests fall foliage tours and transportation by rail to our put-ins that we use for whitewater rafting on the river. The furthest trek is probably 10 rail miles upriver from our start in Johnstown. This opportunity given to us by the railroad is not one we take lightly. These lines built into the mountain sides are something to marvel. As people should. The right way. I am not a "yahoo" as some one posted, which had me laughing pretty good. I am a very safety stringent, law abiding, regulation following member, of our community and feel I would be an asset to railroaders. Not someone to bring that group down. I do laugh at the thought of a yellow school bus riding on the rails.

Would it be more sensible to open a small railroad company as someone suggested? Do Doodlebugs still exist? I LOVE trolleys and the ability to put a trolley onto a track and go (15-25 mph) I'm not sure what you all would recommend. I'm not a speed junkie, I get that in the airplane. We would not be driving around on any rail that strikes our fancy and would fully take into account the agreements, waivers, and insurance costs etc. that would be associated with it. If railroads are looking for money for usage, I of course understand that. I'm running a business too. We want to offer something that no other outdoor company in the world has done yet in our business. Merge industry with the outdoors. Whitewater rafting down a canyon with a train ride to get you there. I know it's a dream. But I think it can be responsibly done.

I am not a fanatic that wants to drive his hippie yellow school bus on railroad tracks. That comment had me rolling laughing. I know it sounds nuts but I hope that my post here gives a little more insight into my "madness". I'm trying to put some jobs back into my community. We need 'em.

[Desertdweller]

Xavier,

First, I want to thank you for your service to our country.

Second, I wish you had explained your intentions better in your first post.

Speaking as a former locomotive engineer and railroad manager, I think what you need to do is buy or lease some actual railroad passenger cars (or car). Make sure it passes FRA inspection. And contract with that railroad to haul your car over their track.
Use the schoolbus for the return trip.

That is the right way to do it.

As a pilot, you are familiar with the FAA. The FRA plays the same role with the railroads.

Les

[Gadfly]

Xavier,

First, I want to thank you for your service to our country.

Second, I wish you had explained your intentions better in your first post.

Speaking as a former locomotive engineer and railroad manager, I think what you need to do is buy or lease some actual railroad passenger cars (or car). Make sure it passes FRA inspection. And contract with that railroad to haul your car over their track.
Use the schoolbus for the return trip.

That is the right way to do it.

As a pilot, you are familiar with the FAA. The FRA plays the same role with the railroads.

Les

Also he *may* be familiar with "scope rules" that determine who can do what and where. With the exception of Amtrak that runs on some freight lines, engineers must be "qualified" on that stretch of road and the division involved. Amtrak iS a railroad and subject to FRA and its engineers already qualify. Therefore, the operator of such a conveyance must be "rules" qualified AND, likely, an employee of the railroad involved. IOW, having someone run a HyRail of some sort means that an engineer employed by the company would have to be called for the run. Otherwise, the union will likely object on safety grounds AND as a violation of the union scope rule. In that case, it *may* be prohibitively expensive either to contract with the railroad OR pay a marked up engineer to run it.

Gud luck either way. Me, I would turn it thumbs down unless it was an operation run FOR you BY the railroad itself.

GF