C&F, Ironton, would it hurt CR if they kept it? Why abanbdon

[carajul]

Just wondering why did CR abandon the Ironton and C&F east of Seiple when it would have been easy to keep them in place by just keeping 2 miles of LV main? Look at it this way... The old LV main is still in place up to the Race St bridge. Well, by abandoning the LV main north of there, CR severed the Ironton forever from the outside world and cut off the C&F eastern connection. They could have kept the LV main in for 2 more miles, then they could have kep the C&F and Ironton connected.

In 1982-ish CR just wiped the whole Caty and Hokendaqua area clean. Ironton, C&F, LV main all gone.

I understand the cement mills stopped coal generation power which killed the coal trains and the cement mills today are all closed. But a customer 'may' pop up someday along the Ironton. And NS could have used the C&F to reach A'town via the LV main for some reason.

Why abandoned 2-3 miles of the C&F and 2 miles of LV main and the Ironton? What hurt did it do to keep it?

[JhnZ33]

Other than no business, a big problem was the IRR and LV bridges over Water st. The bridges had very low clearance and were a driver's nightmare.

[dano23]

In 81-82 Conrail became aggressive in driving itself to profitability mostly due to the Reagan administration looking to trim aid to the railroads. The administration suggested trimming the system down on every level (employees, equipment, route miles, end passenger service etc.) as a way to compensate for the loss in aid. If Conrail couldn't do it themselves, the government in a nutshell threatened that it would take it upon itself to do it. Stanley Crane who became the head of Conrail in 81 led the charge to ween Conrail off federal aid within 2 years and to keep Conrail alive. As a result, in 82 all duplicate lines, marginal lines etc were identified and either downgraded, abandoned or sold off to other railroads resulting in thousands of miles being clipped from the system. The area you speak of is one of those areas where there were many duplicate lines (the whole LV was abandoned between Allentown and Lehighton in 82 in favor of the ex CNJ main) and many unprofitable branch lines there were deemed expendable. It wasn't in Conrail's best interests to just hold on to insignificant lines in the hopes someone some day would want to use the line.

[carajul]

I kinda see what you are saying about getting rid of excess lines. But now if the cement mill in Egypt ever wants rail service again it can't because the Ironton is gone. The mill is still there and maintained and the rr yard is still there too. If the decision is ever made to reactivarlte the mill they can't get rail.

[56-57]

Being told to hold on to unprofitable lines for too long was a major cause of the Northeastern railroad crisis.

The first priority of any corporation is to make money for the owners, be they a sole proprietor, partners, or stockholders. Holding on to 10 miles of rusty track in the lehigh valley wasn't a consideration for a 20,000+ miles system that served countless coal mines, steelmills, intermodal terminals, so on and so forth. Also the cost of unionized, class 1 railroading is far higher than if a shortline had stepped in to run it.

Before you go there, there were plenty of line sales after 1983, to innumerable new (and some old) shortlines. It was a wholesale sell-off of branches and spurs, at the same time tons of CF7's were made available, and the great coach sell-offs by NJT at the same time. If it had been viable, someone at that time would have picked it up. The rail lines, power, and potential excursion equipment were all available at the same time, for every low prices. This was when the BM&R, Robey Lines, Pocono Northeast, Lackawanna Railway (before the DL), etc.. all came into being.

-Micah

[dano23]

I kinda see what you are saying about getting rid of excess lines. But now if the cement mill in Egypt ever wants rail service again it can't because the Ironton is gone. The mill is still there and maintained and the rr yard is still there too. If the decision is ever made to reactivarlte the mill they can't get rail.

If they chose to get service again, it would now be almost 30 years since last served which is a very unrealistic time period to keep a line in hopes of attracting a customer.

I found a listing of carloads in an old magazine. In 1980 243 cars were moved on the Ironton. 76 were moved in '81 then 46 in '82 then a mere 2 cars in '83.

[mrobinson]

Reality is if you really needed to get to Egypt, you "could" cross the Lehigh on the old CNJ bridge into Coplay. However, that bridge was rated only for very light axle loadings so modern cement or coal hoppers probably wouldn't go across. Still, there is a rail access north of Darktown/Water Street.

The Giant Plant in Egypt has been closed for at least 10 years. No cement has been made there and there are no plans to start it back up. While no one wants to hear it, the cement rock at the plant is mostly gone. LaFarge still has other property to mine. They relocated a road to the south of Egypt to allow them to mine undisturbed. The rock is trucked to Cementon when needed. Also, NS retained the right-of-way of the old LVRR all the way to Main Street in Cementon, in case there is a need to use rail service to the plant. Yes, the Water Street bridge was a mess but only the abutments were removed along with the span. The road still crosses over the Coplay Creek where the railroad used to cross over the roadway. The road still makes the "s" turn and is actually useful for "traffic calming" in Darktown. The locals have no problem with it. There is a way to put a bridge over the road back in for not much money, but it requires some money and some thinking "outside the box". It won't happen anytime soon unless some entity really wants the rail service. What remains undeveloped of the RDG yard was going to be an asphalt plant in the early 1990's but lately there are plans for a large self-storage facility. Maybe the asphalt plant could have needed rail service but not the storage place.

As much as I would like to see trains running in Whitehall again, there's just no need. Tarkett was the last rail user. Corman did deliver cars there almost right up to the end of the plant. Now, the plant has been re-used for a number of companies. Yes, they did tear down the Fullerton Station building but at least the place isn't empty. The tracks are still there, for now.

Regardless of the Conrail situation in the 1980's, these rail lines had served their time and the need was gone. Be glad at least some of the Ironton is used as a trail.

M

[carajul]

So what you are saying is that once the cement mills were closed, there was no more use for the Ironton, CR didn't want to hold onto it because it needed to be profitable asap. So that's it. The end?

I don't understand how holding on the to the lines would be costing CR money. They don't pay property tax on the land used for rail and no need for crews if no trains are running. I guess they just figured sell the land, make a few bucks since we aren't running any trains.

[RDGTRANSMUSEUM]

they might not pay tax on the land but what about the track and switches? an old engineer on cr i worked with said 5k was the tax on a switch serving a closed plant. anyone know?

[mrobinson]

So what you are saying is that once the cement mills were closed, there was no more use for the Ironton, CR didn't want to hold onto it because it needed to be profitable asap. So that's it. The end?

I don't understand how holding on the to the lines would be costing CR money. They don't pay property tax on the land used for rail and no need for crews if no trains are running. I guess they just figured sell the land, make a few bucks since we aren't running any trains.

Actually, besides the cement plants, there was virtually no industry on the Ironton at the end. Agway in Ironton, on Mauch Chunk Rd., stopped getting cars mid 1970's. That ended service west of Lesley (Giant Cement) as nothing else was around. Ancient history says once the iron pits at the west end stopped shipping, the railroad probably would have been removed. Cement is what kept it in place and made it literally a very, very valuable property. Hence, ownership split between the LV and the RDG. Providing transportation is what railroading is about and if there's no reason to provide it, unfortunately unless someone comes along to purchase the property, it usually gets ripped up.

As for costing money, the railroads do pay property tax but through their taxes levied by the Feds and the States. That money eventually comes back to the local municipality for their use. They do have to provide insurance on the property (liability for example) and they also are required to maintain any crossing protection. That protection needs to be inspected monthly and if there's a problem (like lightning setting off flashers) someone has to go and repair it. Of course there's bridges to take care of if something gets blocked. The price that Whitehall Township paid for the entire Ironton property (whatever title they could give) was less than the cost of a modest home back then. Probably CR lost money on the deal with all the legal fees, deed preparation, etc. Hauling a boxcar to Kraft in Fogelsville generated more revenue, for sure.

Again, I would like to see the trains running thru Whitehall again. What it would be to see the Ironton Baldwin running along the Coplay Creek, heading to Egypt for a string of cement hoppers. Problem is, that just isn't going to happen. Time has proven, much as I hate to admit, removing the Ironton made sense. No industry is left that needs rail service along those tracks. Ormrod is full of homes now. The Giant mill will probably come down sometime soon. LaFarge grumbles every now and then about the site but it mostly sits there. Saylor is pretty much gone. The property is slowly being redeveloped into an industrial park. While there are still areas containing cement rock, it becomes more and more costly to mine it due to all the rules and regulations imposed now. Plus, the Cementon mill isn't exactly setting the world on fire with cement.

Sorry to be so blunt.

M

[DeForrest Diver]

Please Help .... Did the Ironton ever mark their tall globe lanterns " I. Ry. Co. " and etch the globe in the same way ? All my research says it was always called the Ironton Railroad. I know they had short globe dressels with a soldered on tag instead of the standard die pressed letters into the lid. Thanks for any and all responses.

[mrobinson]

Not sure but I doubt it. Ironton went by Ironton Railroad, IRR, not IRY. Sometimes it was listed as IRN but that was toward the end, from what I recall.

Of course, there's always the oddball item out there....and remember anyone can etch a globe with a fine sandblaster and a stencil.

Good luck,
M

[lvrr325]

Isn't 1982 about the time Stanley Crane came in from the Southern and started cutting 'redundant' track to the point that even Horseshoe curve went from 4 tracks to 3?

[carajul]

Yes, S. Crane came in and chopped up everything. He was on a business train around horse shoe curve and noticed his was the only train in the area and demanded that the 3rd track be lifted immediately, then got the idea to rid CR of every excess piece of rail he could. When they removed welded rail he re-used it elsewhere on track that was still existing but not welded.

However, according to one of the Bednar books, a LVRR business train with white collar execs made rounds of the mainline in 1969. Biery Yard was reduced to 2 tracks a few months later!

[Keith4OliverWilliams]

Per: Keith4OliverWilliams,

Well since my Grandfather Oliver lived in Hokendauqua his entire life and worked for both the Thomas Iron Works and Later as Dispatcher for the Ironton RR and I am the 5th. Generation with some 39 Years so far in the Cement Industry, please let me provide you all with some facts.
1.)Italcementi-Essroc Owns the Form Egypt Giant Plant which was once a Part of Coplay Cement. Some Parts of it are viable.
2.)LaFarge Owns Whitehall Cement And The Old Martin Marietta-Lawrence Cement accross the River. Whitehall is a Functiong integrated Portland Cement Plant and the Old MM Plant Across gets some Cements in by Rail.
3.)I love the Railroads but if any of you have seen (2) Commercials on TV (1) Valero Refineries "Doing Everything We Can For Americas Energy Needs" & (2) Norfolk&Southerns' "Tree picking up a Trailer Truck and putting it on a Piggyback train by the
highway and saying "N&S Doing All It Can Do To Improve The Environment". I beg to as Paul Harvey would say provide you with the rest of the Story!
3.1)Valero Sold The Paulsboro N.J. Refinery which provided Coke as Solid Fuels To Lehigh Valley Cement Plants. The option they gave Cement Plants was either pay huge increases for CokeFuel prices or it will go to China and there it went. By the way you
might want to investigate how much US Bituminous and our own PA Anthracite goes over Seas too, nothing wrong with that only let there be enough Gondola or Hopper cars to supplu US Industry also. Dan Flood an Old Time US Congress Person looked after the Coal Regions, American Military bases used to burn Anthracite. Beyond that the Low Sulfur has great Metalurgical uses.
3.2)At one time my plant received 1000 Rail Cars per year of fuel until N&S wanted $1,000.00 more a car!
We had no other choice but to start bringing in 4000 trucks per year to do the same job. Think of the Environmental Impact.
4.)Yes it is great we have N&S still coming into the Yards @ Allentown & Bethlehem but Oh some of you are right on!
If these Rail lines would have been kept instead of all turned into trails and believe me I am not against the Great work some of those people do but Our Country NEEDS JOBS & Transportation INFRASTRUCTURE.
5.)Think of all the Trolley Lines that once Criss-Crossed the Lehigh Valley. Rte 22 is the 57th. most Congested Highway in the U.S.! Intersate 78 is great but combine those (2) things along with all the Distribution Warehouses And You have the source of
Air problems in the Lehigh Valley!
6.)Sure I helped my Grandma Sweep her Hokey Home Steps and Walks (3) Times per Day but todays Cement Plants are held to very strict regulations. Sure mistakes are made but the biggest contributor to Ozone & Acid Rain Issues are not Important Industries but Rather Transportation, ie Cars & Trucks.
7.)The Answer, take back some of the Rail To Trails, re-establish Light Rail on the same tracks that would also service freight
and do it all across America with US Supplied Materials And Know-How. Just watch how the Environment would improve.
8.)Pennsylvania and the Lehigh Valley can see an Industrial Rebirth and Yes this Time we have the Pollution Control Equipment to do it the right way.
9.)Last year the US made only 2% of the Entire 3.5 Billion Tons Of Cement made world wide. The area that was known as the birthplace of the US Portland Cement Industry now only has (5) Plants BUUSA-Hercules/ItalcEssroc-Nazareth/Spa-Keystone-Bath/
LarFargeWhitehall-Cementon/HansonHeidelbergLehigh-Evansville.
10.)Return Light Rail to the Network that once was made up of Trolleys with "Reasonable&Frequent TimeTables, Stations and
interconnections to New York, Philadelphia, Harrisburg and all points beyond and you would see a robust economy and a Healthy Environement and people leaving their cars at home. That will not hurt the Auto industry because people will still want their cars
and we continue to have more and more people in the world each year.
11.)The above is not Tree Hugging Bashing just a realization that we may have given up too soon on some very important infrastructure that is now compounding our Modern Day Problems.
12.)Trenton has a great sign on a Bridge "What Trenton Makes, The World Takes" that applies to the Lehigh Valley and many places across the US. Greed by Unions/Management, Taxes, Regulations all have propelled us to this point. It is time to come together, learn from our Rich Industrial Heritage in the Lehigh Valley and Commonwealth and the US and say lets roll up our
Sleeves and start all over. Railroads and Mass Public Transportation are an Integral part of that and they will drive us to a more
prosperous and Environmentally Safe society than all the Solar Panels, Windmills, etc. will ever do and again not saying those things are unimportant but everything in balance and for far too long we have been imbalanced with our deteriorated "Local Rail
Systems" that if revived will only make the Long Haul Rails even that more efficient. Continue to Google Earth and explore our History the answers to a better tomorrow are out there all we have to do is be able to envision them.