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  • Pennsylvania & Sodus Bay unfinished railroad

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

 #498444  by RussNelson
 
Does anybody have any information on the Pennsylvania and Sodus Bay routing north of Interlaken? It was never finished, just partially graded. They ran out of money, the workers laid down their tools one day, and that was that. I can see several hints of a railbed in various farmer's fields and at river crossings. But without outside information I'm just doing photo-interpretation. Chancy at best.

Help?

Here's my best guess, but north of Ovid Center I'm just parallelling a pipeline ... or is the pipeline parallelling the ROW? Or maybe the routing is west of the pipeline?
http://rutlandtrail.org?gmap.cgi?PnSB-H ... g.ny.track

I've found a couple of suspicious features beyond Interlaken. If you have Adobe's Flash installed on your computer (nearly everyone does), then you can view this URL: http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.61860 ... =48&src=yh See the vertical (rotated from the northwest) line in the center at the cross-hairs? I believe that's a remnant.
Scrolling further to the Northeast, you get here: http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.61860 ... =48&src=yh A prominent cut to the southeast of the center cross-hairs, and a shadow in the fields to the northwest.
Scrolling further to the Northeast, you get to Sheldrake Creek: http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.64109 ... 9&src=aska There's nothing on the topo map to indicate that there are any remains, but there are some nice shadows on both the north and the south. There's *definitely something to the north.
All along this way, there's been a pipeline going in the same direction, roughly parallel but higher up the hill. Just west of Ovid Center, the pipeline seems to join in with the location of the ROW. Was the pipeline built on the ROW? I have the PnSB routed along the pipeline, but as I write this, I notice this: http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.66617 ... 2&src=aska The pipeline is to the right and below the cross-hair, but look at this line to the left and above the cross-hair! Maybe ... just maybe this is a remnant! Further north is this: http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.67857 ... 1&src=aska
Oh, speculation upon speculation! :-)

 #498472  by Mark_K
 
Was it ballasted as well, Russ?

 #498483  by RussNelson
 
They never laid the ties or any rails. If I was building a railroad, I'd put down the ballast after the ties and rails to lock them in place. And of course, I'd use the railroad to deliver the ballast.

The really tricky thing is to lay down a fill using the railroad that will run on it. They had to do that for the Burlington Causeway across Lake Champlain. There wasn't much settling, because they used marble tailings.

SEE

 #498484  by henry6
 
See second edition of RAILROADS OF TOMPKINS COUNTY with all the extra maps. I'll try to look tonite.

 #498752  by RussNelson
 
Yes, the Hardy Campbell Lee / Winton Rossiter book and map is invaluable. My uncertainty is with Seneca County, though. How far north into Seneca County did they grade it?

 #517460  by chnaus
 
Russ, I have an LVRR drawing of a proposed water supply at Sheldrake
Springs ,1913. They wanted to run a 3" wrought iron pipeline south to
Sheldrake Creek and then SW along the creek to a man made reservoir
at a point just beyond the your said pipeline. On the drawing it identifies
this location as Penna & Sodus Bay Grade. Comparing to a topo map
I believe this is one and the same. The drawing shows a falls downstream
about 100' from the grade.
Is this any help ??
chnaus

 #517675  by RussNelson
 
Cool! Can I get a photocopy or scan of this drawing? Happy to pay expenses.
 #794294  by RussNelson
 
Did some fieldwork today. The cut is definitely a cut. Landowner confirms that it was an unfinished RR and that they have bee filling it in for years. The shadows at Sheldrake Creek are two tall abutments and corresponding fills. More later when I get to a real computer.

Re:

 #794297  by RussNelson
 
chnaus wrote:Russ, I have an LVRR drawing of a proposed water supply at Sheldrake
Springs ,1913. They wanted to run a 3" wrought iron pipeline south to
Sheldrake Creek and then SW along the creek to a man made reservoir
at a point just beyond the your said pipeline. On the drawing it identifies
this location as Penna & Sodus Bay Grade. Comparing to a topo map
I believe this is one and the same. The drawing shows a falls downstream
about 100' from the grade.
Is this any help ??
chnaus
Yes, there is a falls just downstream from the p&sb grade.
 #796592  by RussNelson
 
Southernmost end, where it just peters out into a cut. There are a few disconnected fills to the north. They likely were going to put trestles between them.
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.29919 ... r=7&src=yh

I found bunches more, and see from looking at the map of A History of Railroads in Tompkins County, that I missed a bunch as well. But that book doesn't cover anything north of Trumansburg at the northern end of Tompkins County.

Speculation:
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.50991 ... =48&src=yh (pretty sure of this since it connects to the abutments)
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.54167 ... =48&src=yh (in Trumansburg)
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.56567 ... =48&src=yh (north of T'burg)

South of Interlaken is a gap in the woods, which is clear of trees and undergrowth as far as the eye can see. The soil goes down from the surrounding terrain, so I suspect that they stripped off the topsoil (which they wouldn't want underneath the roadbed), and that has kept most plants from growing there. There are two stone culverts along the way. You can't really see anything from the aerial photo, I'm just pointing at it in case you want to go see it:
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.59541 ... =48&src=yh

Here is a little stretch of grade in the woods a farmer chose not to plow. To the north end of the grade (which is maybe 50' long) is a stone culvert, mostly collapsed. I suspect that's at least partially why he didn't plow it into history.
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.59804 ... =48&src=yh

Definitely a cut, confirmed as the P&SB by the landowner:
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.63263 ... =48&src=yh

30' tall abutments here, backed by a long fill on the north, and a shadow in the field to the south (not very visible in this photo, but it's definitely there in the Bing birdseye view):
http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=42.64152 ... =48&src=yh
 #884070  by RussNelson
 
Hey, coolness! I found that Cornell has some historic aerial photos ... from various dates, but the oldest is 1938. Well guess what? You can see at least parts of the P&SB VERY VERY clearly on the 1938 aerials. Look here:
http://library24.library.cornell.edu:82 ... t/s/34d4yy
In the northern half of this photo, parallel to the Lehigh (which is very clear) is a ghostly white line on the south side about halfway over to the highway. That is the P&SB. Clearly they finished grading it this far north.

I've traced it as far north as Fayette. I think it curves away to the west at Fayette ... at least there's an obvious curve on the west side of the village. But from there I have no idea where it goes.
 #891148  by RussNelson
 
With the help of George Vergamini, who pointed me to a bridge in Seneca Falls, I've found the rest of the graded portion of the P&SB. Woo hoo! George grew up in Seneca Falls, and walked to school across the Rumsey Street bridge. His father told him that that bridge had been built for a railroad which was never finished. It was a one-lane bridge, so that makes sense. I looked on the afore-mentioned 1938 aerial photos, and the ROW shows up like a lit candle on a dark night. Couldn't be more clear. And on the modern maps, it's practically invisible (on the aerial photos). I've been to a few spots where I've found the railbed on the aerial photos, and have found linear clearings, culverts, and even abutments. So I know that the photos are telling me the truth.

Now the questions that remain are:
1) Where did it go north of Seneca Falls? I look a quick look and didn't spot any obvious ROWs, so I speculate that they were going to connect to the NYC until they could continue to Sodus Bay. But maybe in time we'll find a ROW heading north?
2) Besides the obvious abutments south of Trumansburg crossing the Taughannock, and north of Interlaken crossing the Sheldrake, and various culverts and bits of cut and fill, what other obvious remains are there?
3) if, as they say, the railroad was completely finished except for the rails, why are there gaps in the fill on the southern end? Were they at the 99% graded stage rather than 100% ("completely")? Or was it actually graded, and did some freshet running down the hillside erode the grade some time in the last 135 years?
 #891177  by RussNelson
 
Oh-ho! Look at this: http://books.google.com/books?id=YG7lAA ... 22&f=false where it says
Penn. & Sodcs Bay.—Judgment of foreclosure and sale against the Pennsylvania & Sodus Bay Railroad was entered in the county clerk's office April 15. The railroad runs through Tioga, Tompkins, Seneca and Wayne counties of this State. The Union Trust Company of this city is the plaintiff in the suit for foreclosure, it having been made trustee for the $1,620,000 of mortgage bonds issued by the company.
Wayne County is well NORTH of Seneca Falls. Now, that doesn't mean that they graded anything in Wayne County; merely that they owned property in Wayne County.
 #891259  by lvrr 560
 
The P & SB did some gradeing in Wayne county.East of Alloway there is a cut in the woods that was

the ROW. My guess is that they were heading north to Lyons and close the route 14 highway alignment

to Sodus Point.