Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

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lvrr325
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by lvrr325 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:43 pm

IIRC the hot rumor for a while is that NYS&W would get the lines north. That would have let CSX retain a stake in them without having to operate them.

But, with the NYS&W getting them traffic could then be routed via Binghamton to Little Ferry and CSX gets none of it. (I'm aware they'd have to run around in Binghamton but it wouldn't be hard to add a connector that would do away with that).

I suppose they could still spin off the branches as a cluster, I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens there.

RSD15
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by RSD15 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:04 pm

lvrr325 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:43 pm
IIRC the hot rumor for a while is that NYS&W would get the lines north. That would have let CSX retain a stake in them without having to operate them.

But, with the NYS&W getting them traffic could then be routed via Binghamton to Little Ferry and CSX gets none of it. (I'm aware they'd have to run around in Binghamton but it wouldn't be hard to add a connector that would do away with that).
There already is a connector there connecting the Delaware with the S&U. Been there a couple years at least.

NYS&W may pick up some low priority stuff but they can't match CSX to Little Ferry on inter modal. CSX makes the Dewitt to LF run in about 8 hours with one crew.

lvrr325
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by lvrr325 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:14 am

That was a rumor and didn't happen. I don't see NYS&W picking up any traffic.

At the time I had a look and there was no connection.

JoeCollege
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by JoeCollege » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:01 am

lvrr325 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:14 am
That was a rumor and didn't happen. I don't see NYS&W picking up any traffic.

At the time I had a look and there was no connection.
Please suffer this fool gladly, as I readily admit I don't know the logistics and geography of the area. BUT....

Would it be possible for CN to make some of this happen? That is, with their deep pockets, could CN conceivably also purchase CSX's stake in DO Corp/NYSW, build a connection to the Syracuse branch, and make a run for NY/NJ from the North? Probably not, as I am sure the lease with NS for the CNYK to run the Southern Tier from Binghamton to NJ is surely loaded with restrictive covenants, but IF CN were to buy out NYSW, then could this come to pass?

tree68
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by tree68 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:18 pm

Those leftover covenants certainly could throw a monkey wrench into the works.

From what I can see, however, all that would be required to make a direct move from the St Lawrence Sub to the Suzy-Q would be a new crossover west of the current CP and east of the current switch that reaches the NYSW off main 2.

At one time (early 1900's) there appears to have been a diamond with the RW&O crossing the NYC right at the mall. Today, the tracks south of the CSX mains would be running through the parking lot.

I'm not sure the RW&O (or whoever's) tracks went very far south of said diamond. Source - Historic Aerials.

Getting on the NYSW could also mean a straight shot to Scranton...
Tree

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nessman
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by nessman » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:08 am

joha107 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:07 pm
https://www.cn.ca/en/news/2019/08/cn-an ... te-of-new/

CN is buying the St. Lawrence and Montreal Subs, this comes after CSX and CN announced earlier this month that they would be working together on moving intermodal traffic from Northeast US ports into Canada via Buffalo and Fort Covington. My personal opinion, this is probably the best option to grow traffic on this line given the lack of online customers, traffic going to and from Canada far outweighs anything else moving on this line. It will be interesting to see if CN reroutes any of their other traffic that moves on other lines into the Northeast US onto the Massena line.
Wonder what'll happen with the Baldwinsville and Fulton subs?

Oh - and I guess this thread should be retitled: Trains on CN's Messina Line (CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary))

lvrr325
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by lvrr325 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:01 am

When built, the RW&O line went all the way downtown and connected to the NYC below Franklin Square, the mileposts start from there. It followed North Clinton St. and connection curved west across N. Franklin St.; the original New Process Gear was served from it. This was a heavily industrial area until the late 20th century. There also were connections to the DL&W city spur and the spur along Solar St. which served the inner harbor and more tank farms. Most of this lasted into Conrail, although how much it was used at that point I don't know. By the time the mall was built the only active customer I recall was Marley's scrapyard.

CN and NS work together in other places, I see no reason they couldn't buy out a share of the NYS&W and run traffic over it, getting that crossover installed on CSX is probably another story.

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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by JoeCollege » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:42 am

Thank you, @Tree68 and @lvrr325, and good point, Nessman.

Of course my irrational foamer fantasy would be for the entire thing to traverse the old O&W over Lyon Brook gorge, but that's something for me and a therapist to work through.

Here's hoping for increased traffic on all extant lines mentioned- for foamers' sake and for the sake of jobs and prosperity.

clearblock
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by clearblock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:13 am

nessman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:08 am
Wonder what'll happen with the Baldwinsville and Fulton subs?
Since CSX is keeping the line from Syracuse to Woodard to maintain the Fulton Sub connection, they must plan to continue to operate it. The Baldwinsville Sub really has no connection to the deal.

ccutler
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by ccutler » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 am

CSX and CN also announced a joint marketing agreement for traffic between Quebec, Ontario and the NYC area, so it seems likely that traffic would run on the highly efficient CSX route and not down the winding NYSW route. I am imagining also that CSX would have CN not using NYSW to reach NS, as part of the deal.

RSD15
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by RSD15 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:38 am

At the present time the only way for CN to connect to NYSW would be for CSX to grant permission for CN to get to Belle Isle,cp293, and use the crossovers there to get on the NYSW.

nessman
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by nessman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:45 pm

clearblock wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:13 am
nessman wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:08 am
Wonder what'll happen with the Baldwinsville and Fulton subs?
Since CSX is keeping the line from Syracuse to Woodard to maintain the Fulton Sub connection, they must plan to continue to operate it. The Baldwinsville Sub really has no connection to the deal.
Right but will they be looking for another operator to handle traffic on those lines?

lvrr325
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Re: Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

Post by lvrr325 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:40 pm

RSD15 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:38 am
At the present time the only way for CN to connect to NYSW would be for CSX to grant permission for CN to get to Belle Isle,cp293, and use the crossovers there to get on the NYSW.
Belle Isle is CP-296. To run in from the 293 side would require a run-around move there, either using the main and the controlled siding or if the train is short enough they could do it on the siding with the one remaining yard track. In theory it might be possible; NYS&W has had rights through here, it would depend on what rights the CN trains are granted below CP-W (or whatever CSX is calling that now). But as noted previously it's not very likely save perhaps as a detour move.

They could also run around the train using track 7 or 8 between 290 and 286 and that would let them go in the hand throw at 292.7.


So far no real changes that I've seen; still about the same level of traffic and the same mostly CSX power with a CN unit here and there.

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