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Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

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 #1372239  by MaineCoonCat
 
I'm finding the dearth of on-line topo maps from the period covering the westerly areas of New England a more than a bit vexing.. Even NETR "Historic Aerials" seems to only go back to the 1930's.. Anyone got any better sources? This is getting to be like that song you can't get out of your head..
 #1372267  by Badandy
 
I was thinking, not only is this person's penmanship awful, I think he or she's spelling is probably off too.
 #1372283  by Ridgefielder
 
wally wrote:i don't know that we can surmise that there are mature white pine trees off to the left. not enough good detail for that. the pines on the hill, in the left foreground (next to the cut for the mainline) are taller than the other trees, but decidedly much less than 100' tall. more like 60', from the scale of the crossing signs, and the two people walking the rails in the cut. the trees on either side of the cut are the only ones, along with the first tree next to the branchline, that we can see the entire stem from ground to top in any detail.
You can tell by the branching pattern against the sky. A younger white pine will have a bushier, fuller shape, more toward a "Christmas tree" profile, like those to the right of the cut. Mature trees have a much more irregular branching pattern, like those on the left.
Badandy wrote:I was thinking, not only is this person's penmanship awful, I think he or she's spelling is probably off too.
It may have been written in pencil while actually on board the train-- wherever that was.

It's an odd view for a postcard, isn't it? I mean, there's no particular feature there except the railroad and some distant hills. And it's not even a particularly impressive piece of railroad infrastructure-- just a grade crossing and a fill, and a double-track main running off into the distance. It's not a viaduct, a river crossing, a tunnel or a grand station. Nor is there anything very remarkable-looking about the hills, unless that actually is Greylock or Monadnock or something off in the distance. Looks like it could be almost anywhere in inland New England aside from Maine.

Could it have been a free give-away from the railroad itself, maybe stocked in the writing table of the parlor/obs/whatever?
 #1372291  by wally
 
Ridgefielder wrote:
wally wrote:i don't know that we can surmise that there are mature white pine trees off to the left. not enough good detail for that. the pines on the hill, in the left foreground (next to the cut for the mainline) are taller than the other trees, but decidedly much less than 100' tall. more like 60', from the scale of the crossing signs, and the two people walking the rails in the cut. the trees on either side of the cut are the only ones, along with the first tree next to the branchline, that we can see the entire stem from ground to top in any detail.
You can tell by the branching pattern against the sky. A younger white pine will have a bushier, fuller shape, more toward a "Christmas tree" profile, like those to the right of the cut. Mature trees have a much more irregular branching pattern, like those on the left.
my fault. i equated your statement that the mature pines were 100 to 180 feet tall. in this case, they are not (at least the one that we can see the entire stem of). there is no set height at which a tree is "mature", but there are characteristics of mature trees, and you correctly pointed out a few for pine. the mature pine in the photo is nowhere close to 180 feet tall, nor does it likely exceed 60' by much.

the christmas tree branching is a function of growing in the open. northeastern white pine grown in tight conditions (forest) does not exhibit "x-mas" tree form, even when young. in such conditions, they have tight, narrow crowns that do not extend from stump to top.

the characteristic form of mature white pine has to do with crown competition. as cometitors die, the remaining stems no longer need to gain height to compete for sunlight, and so leader growth slows as the tree devotes more effort to expanding branches radially. this has the effect of "squaring" the apparent crown. if the tree originally had competitors, the lower branches get shed. as you point out, that is the appearance of some of the pines on the left. thus, at one time, there were many more white pine in this location.

wally
 #1372296  by trainsinmaine
 
I am happy to report that this has been definitively established as being in Charlestown, N.H. on the B&M. The track to the left is the original roadbed of the Springfield Terminal Rwy. There is a considerable amount of history here that I was not aware of. More information to follow later in the day.
 #1372300  by wally
 
the original ST connection with the B & M must be significantly farther south than it was in later years. but, that makes the peak in the left ascutney, regardless. it also makes the photo a "morning" shot, since the sun is in the east, low in the sky.

wally
 #1372305  by Ridgefielder
 
trainsinmaine wrote:I am happy to report that this has been definitively established as being in Charlestown, N.H. on the B&M. The track to the left is the original roadbed of the Springfield Terminal Rwy. There is a considerable amount of history here that I was not aware of. More information to follow later in the day.
Well there go all of my clever theories! :-D
wally wrote:my fault. i equated your statement that the mature pines were 100 to 180 feet tall. in this case, they are not (at least the one that we can see the entire stem of). there is no set height at which a tree is "mature", but there are characteristics of mature trees, and you correctly pointed out a few for pine. the mature pine in the photo is nowhere close to 180 feet tall, nor does it likely exceed 60' by much.
Wasn't clear enough as to what I was saying. Guess I was just trying to make the point that white pines that are old enough to have an irregular crown aren't usually short trees, so if we're looking down at them, we're likely at some distance above the ground on which they stand-- and it didn't look from the Google streetview and my glance at the topo maps as if the B&M in this area was that far up the hill.
 #1372431  by trainsinmaine
 
Sorry I've been so long in following up to my statement of two days ago that the photo mystery has finally been laid to rest.
It's been a fun ride!

Below is cut-and-pasted email correspondence in which I have been included, but largely as an observer and questioner. I noted earlier that there is considerable history behind the depicted section of the Conn River, both detailed and fascinating. I had known none of it previously. I and my friend Chris, who initiated this whole discussion, plan to go to Charlestown sometime this spring and investigate all of this in detail. For those of you unfamiliar with the area (and I'm not terribly familiar with it myself, except for occasional rides-through), the spot in the picture would be almost unrecognizable today.

Sat., Feb. 20, from Chris Coyle, Athol, Mass., railfan who first passed the photo on to me:
I believe this to be taken just north of Charlestown, NH looking northward. That looks like Mt. Ascutney (and my uncle's farm) to the north, the B&M Conn River line and Springfield Electric diverging from its parallel trackage with the B&M as it heads toward the Cheshire toll bridge and into Springfield.

Referred to Alden Dreyer, Shelburne, Mass., former dispatcher for B&M/Guilford's Fitchburg and Conn River lines; in turn referred the same day to Doug Manson, Conn River Valley resident and engineer for PanAm Southern and Amtrak's Vermonter, who responded:
The Springfield Terminal diverged at the north end of the tangent just north of the Charlestown depot, just short of the right hand curve so it can't be that. Also there is no overhead wire for the track diverging. It was taken from an overhead bridge as you can see the tell-tale for the southward track. Interesting that the crossing has a cattleguard both north and south of it, suggesting open range. Strange for New England. It does look like Mt. Ascutney. Around the curve just north of where the ST diverges, are two locations the B&M called "Mud Cut" and "Bull Run". B&M mile post 93 and 94 respectively. There is an overhead bridge there which separates the two locations and this looks like it could be taken from that bridge looking north. So Mud Cut would be behind the photographer, it was an area with alot of water and in the spring they used to run work trains with a link belt crane to scoop out the mud that had slid down toward the track. The picture is would be looking north, down Bull Run. A name which came about, as I understand it from the ole timers I fired for, from a type of steam engine that were nicknamed "Bulls", and they used to let them run as fast as they could here to get a run on the hill up to South Claremont. The track going off to the left baffles me though. Perhaps it led to an area where they removed material for the fill required in the relocation, which this picture looks down, and hadn't removed the track yet. There was line relocation in this area with the original line being too the left but that track doesn't fit into that as the old line went off to the left part way into the curve just north of the Jct with the ST which is more than a half mile south of this location. Looking way down the tangent you can see where the line curves to the left and climbs up along the side of the hill toward South Claremont, which is just what it still does today. And you can still see where the original road bed was all along up the hill, just like north of Claremont Jct, leading to the High Bridge and for several miles beyond.

Just my guess. I'd be interested in what everyone else thinks.
Thanks for sending. Very interesting photo.

Sun., Feb. 21, from Alden Dreyer:
I think Doug has pinpointed the location pretty well as looking north from Bridge 92.70. There should be style B semaphores before the bridge, but maybe the photographer shot over them. I'm guessing that the bridge had just opened, or was under construction, to replace the grade crossing.
The original grade running down from Mud Cut to Bull Run, was 1.00%, reduced to 0.60 when the line was relocated. Bull Run was raised 42 feet. And I'm guessing that the track going down the hill connected to the original line to aid in the reconstruction effort.
The pole lines were interesting. Almost looks like they constructed a single track on the left, placed poles, and then added a second track and decided the poles were not high enough. Or something......

Mon., Feb. 22, from Scott Whitney, Bellows Falls-Charlestown area resident; engineer, Vermont Rail Systems:
All speculation should be laid to rest on the location. It is definitely the ST curving off to the left and the wire is there but just can't be seen in the poor image reproduction. I would LOVE a full size scan of this. For the crossing I was trying to find out what the date it was replaced with a bridge over the road. It was certainly quite a drop from the main street in Charlestown down to and UNDER the tracks. When I first started railfanning in the mid 70's the bridge was still there but Route 12 had long been filled in and relocated to parallel the B&M north with a new bridge over Springfield Station to get to Springfield. I think it was 78-79 that the underpass was finally filled in and the girders removed.

What I do know is this is before the track relocation from Springfield Station up through Bull Run took place. I had once assumed that this relocation came about in the very early 1900's but have to wonder now if it was done at the same time as the West Claremont project. Alden says below that Bull Run was raised 42 feet. However, in the past I have travelled the old right of way (can't now as it is gated) and I had doubted that number. After researching it a bit more I have come to find that indeed it is true and the old Bull Run had a dip with a .48% grade down leading to a sudden .85% upward. That's quite a roller coaster ride. The odd thing is that you can't see that dip today. I believe it has all washed away. So, I as if anyone has seen photo documentation of this relocation. Everything else done at that time period was well covered.

Tues., Feb. 23, from Scott Whitney: A 3D attachment of the site depicted (see below).

Later the same day, from Mr. Whitney:
I went through the day today pondering the whys and wherefores of the relocation at Bull Run in Charlestown. I believe I know WHY the project to raise the track level by 42 feet took place but I need one last date to be certain. Indeed it may have been a part of the general upgrades for heavier faster power on the B&M but there is one last factor I had overlooked. That was the river level itself. While on the surface one would think that the location many miles north of Bellows Fall would not see a change, indeed it did happen to be part and parcel of the building of the power dam at BF. I'm fairly certain that a requirement of the building of the dam that the power authority also had to pay for raising the level of any railroads that could be affected by it. The Rutland certainly was one and the B&M was the other. 42 feet lower on Bull Run would have the track under water today.

Now, my real mystery is how it was accomplished. I would love to see the land valuation maps of the area but right now all indications are that the low point actually lies beneath the present Bull Run This would involve keeping the railroad operating while systematically raising double tracks by the 42 feet. That in itself is a major feat. The other consideration is why relocate? I think the reasons were many and in no particular order due to: curvature, grade, ability to create a highway overpass and lastly, fill. While it would be many more years before the Lovers Lane overpass would be built, the old location was nearly an impossible spot to do so. moving the mainline remedied this. Secondly is fill. Raising track 42 feet is huge. Even the West Claremont High Bridge project only raised track 30 feet. All that fill came from the new cut created for the relocation. It certainly makes sense to me to get some sort of improvement for your efforts.

Tues., Feb. 23, from Alden Dreyer, his final word:
This location is exactly where I first thot it was based upon my track charts. Being between MP91 & 92. But the more I studied it, the most confused I became.
Then Doug Manson suggested Bull Run between MP93 & 94. Hmmmmm.
All I had to go on was two track charts: one from 1915 and the other from 1961. And the topo maps. The 1915 chart said you slid down a 1.00% grade to Bull Run, elevation 301 feet, than started the northward climb up the 0.85. The 1961 chart reduced the 1.00% down to 0.60 and the bottom was now at 343 feet, where you again soon hit the 0.85% for about a half mile.
My 1961 chart shows both the overhead bridge, 91.54, and the grade crossing, 91.62. Your 3D rendition, Scott, is worth a 1,000 words, so I'll shut up now.
 #1372461  by wally
 
thanks for the summary/info. cannascrews had it right in the google earth image.

with the spot narrowed down, and the "new" information, perhaps the photo is indeed from the "new" bridge street bridge, the sweeping RR curve to the left in the distance is the new ST alignment, while the sharp curve to the left is the original. the first crossing is/was old route 11, now called "old springfield road", the depression is clay brook, and the next crossing visible just after the cut is a road leading from "snumshire" to route 11, which is now cut off by the new route 12 (fling road and hammond road).

the hill directly in line with the main is in vermont, and is skitchewaug mountain.


today's jones road and bulls run are the old b&m alignment after the ST diverges, at the lover's lane bridge. these are not directly visible in the photo.

clear as mud.

wally
 #1372485  by CannaScrews
 
Now we can all meet for a beer & congratulate everyone on the joint effort.

Al G
 #1372509  by Ridgefielder
 
CannaScrews wrote:Now we can all meet for a beer & congratulate everyone on the joint effort.

Al G
An excellent idea! Now, you think we'll ever be able to agree on a location?? :-D
 #1372517  by BostonUrbEx
 
The last time I saw an attempt at a meetup, I'm pretty sure it went back-and-forth for weeks! However, I think most support was for the the Steaming Tender in Palmer which would have made for good fare, good railfanning, and the most centrally-located place for a New England meetup.
 #1373230  by FLRailFan1
 
BostonUrbEx wrote:The last time I saw an attempt at a meetup, I'm pretty sure it went back-and-forth for weeks! However, I think most support was for the the Steaming Tender in Palmer which would have made for good fare, good railfanning, and the most centrally-located place for a New England meetup.
The Steaming Tender in Palmer......? How's the food there...I know I used to watch the Vermonter do the back up... I'd love to see Palmer be a train watchers place with CSX, NECR, Amtrak, MBTA and Commuter trains on the NECR along with Mass Central.