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  • Manchester, CT Secondary - still in use ?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

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 #1225700  by etna9726b
 
Is the CoOp or Sanford Hawley still receiving or shipping carloads ? I usually catch the local on the bridge over I-84 once a month or so, but nothing recently.
 #1226736  by bwparker1
 
Coop gets shipments. I don't know if Sanford and Hawley gets much via rail anymore. The brick dealer still gets an occasional load of bricks in a boxcar. I work in Manchester so I check it out when I am in the area.
 #1233220  by FLRailFan1
 
I bet if the CSO had the full line east of Manchester (to Willimantic), the line would be busy. CSO tries to get business that the PC/Conrail didn't care about. (Of course, I wish it was back along with the old Rockville branch). Granted, the changing economy of Connecticut from manufacturing to Service, killed the need of trains. But think about CSO running to South Manchester and Rockville/Ellington.)
 #1233842  by Larry
 
CSO which is G&W now needs to go after the customers. They also need to stop at this point if they haven't already by charging an extra $150.00 to cross from Htfd to East Htfd. They are/were charging that amount for every car over the bridge so it can be fixed which to me should have happened already. I'm am not sure what is holding this up. I am sad to say I see the truck testing the tracks out to Manchester more then I see the actual freight train go out to the Co op. I haven't see a rail car for S & H in along time. I agree this line needs to be opened to Willimantic and the time is now with the NH to Sprfd Amtrak line going to be doubled tracked and their fees that they charge CSO per car load as well.
 #1233876  by TomNelligan
 
FLRailFan1 wrote:I bet if the CSO had the full line east of Manchester (to Willimantic), the line would be busy.
Hauling what? What sort of untapped market for carload freight lies between Manchester and Willimantic? There was basically no on-line business east of Manchester when the line was abandoned in 1970, and there's far less market for carload freight business in Connecticut in general now than there was back then. The main reason Hartford-Willimantic lasted as long as it did after the end of passenger service in 1955 was because it was part of the New Haven's convoluted route for autoracks and other overdimensional cars (Maybrook-Derby Jct.-Waterbury-Hartford-Willimantic-Plainfield-Putnam-Boston). Once Penn Central rerouted that traffic to the B&A in 1969, the Midland unfortunately had nothing left to justify its upkeep.

Your best argument would be that interchange traffic between the New England Central and Connecticut Southern would blossom with a direct connection, but since CS's current business all comes off of CSX I think that's a stretch too, at least as regards covering the cost of rebuilding the line from bare roadbed.
 #1233882  by Larry
 
I believe that is what FLrailfan1 is saying and I also believe it would help all out, tie CSO together with NECentral. I also think P&W would also benefit from the connection as well as CNZR to get away from CSX. Just a thought but I know it will never happen.
 #1233911  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
NECR and CSO already pool their equipment. It's pretty much a matter of time before they combine management and fully unite under one operating mark. G&W's a very efficiency-minded conglomerate...and there are efficiencies to be had here.

As for a direct interchange, that can happen far more immediately than however many decades it'll take for the missing link to Willimantic to be restored. State of Massachusetts recently bought the Conn River Line from Pan Am Southern for a relatively bargain-basement $17M. And the Vermonter upgrades are making it all 286K. While PAS still has big plans for freight on that line and retains dispatching control, the new public ownership and big public investment in the upgrades is an opportunity for G&W to pursue overhead rights between Northfield and Springfield on that route. PAS would still need its fair share of payola to make that happen, but it's much easier for G&W to broker a deal with them with MassDOT as the landlord. MassDOT wants more daily users of that track to get a return on investment for this big project. If they can score those overhead rights NECR and CSO do become a fully integrated regional system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are rumors popping up of the various parties talking. From G&W's perspective, though, uniting CSO and NECR makes a lot more sense if they can get a commitment for the Springfield Line to be upgraded to 286K between Springfield and Hartford Yard. Right now the CT River Bridge is the primary limiter to that, since the NHHS + Vermonter upgrades do not fund that not-great condition span. But it would be a worthwhile investment because the Bradley Branch, Manchester Sec., the Armory, and CNZR's Griffins Sec. are all 286K-rated and would finally allow CSO and CNZR to tap their branchlines' native capacity (even if 286K has to stop at Hartford Yard-proper because of further limitations downstream). Funding that uprate shouldn't be difficult to tack on later. The only reason it wasn't now was because it's a pricey surplus-to-requirement for getting the base NHHS build up and running. So CDOT's and Amtrak's influence matters too for the G&W carriers in addition to MassDOT's and PAS's.


FWIW...Amtrak probably has no objection to 286K on its Springfield Line ownership so long as the freight interests are paying for it and not them. The Shoreline got fully uprated to 286K east of New Haven for P&W's stone trains when it was rebuilt in prep for the Acela. Their punitive carload fees...well, that's a whole other can of worms. The more parties involved the more likely Amtrak can be brought to the bargaining table. Won't be easy, but money talks and if CDOT/MassDOT/G&W/PAS/CNZR and whoever else with a stake in Central CT freight growth makes it worth their while...they can probably be haggled with on carload rates. Say what you will about Amtrak's relationship with freights, but they are rational actors in a negotiation.
 #1234404  by QB 52.32
 
The most important thing to understand when thinking about CSOR is that CSX-predecessor Conrail sold CSOR their franchise with "paper interchange barriers", effectively making CSOR CR/CSX's subcontractor, and as such, any interchange to/from any other carrier is subject to CSX's approval, including NECR. Unless a CSOR interchange with a non-CSX carrier is net-neutral or beneficial to CSX, I don't think you're going to see it, and an unrestricted interchange with NECR, PAS or P&W competes with CSX.
 #1234434  by Larry
 
Well if that is still the case then the line to Manchester as well as the line to S. Windsor and Enfield might as well shut down. I drove both lines yesterday and there is no action basically on either line, they look like they are just rusting away. Yes they are still serving both lines but it is so sad to look and see no cars on line or even switches to place cars as most were taken out.
 #1234446  by Cosmo
 
FLRailFan1 wrote:I bet if the CSO had the full line east of Manchester (to Willimantic), the line would be busy. CSO tries to get business that the PC/Conrail didn't care about. (Of course, I wish it was back along with the old Rockville branch). Granted, the changing economy of Connecticut from manufacturing to Service, killed the need of trains. But think about CSO running to South Manchester and Rockville/Ellington.)
PLEASE! Enough! That line is NOT coming back because there is NO demand for interchange between P&W and CSOR that will justify the MILLIONS it would take to rebuild the line from the ground up. Let's not even START on the whole NIMBY issue of wresting the trail back from it's currently state.
In short, the rail-trail people have invested far more into this portion of line than any railroad has in decades... and there is a REASON for that.
 #1234447  by Cosmo
 
Larry wrote: I agree this line needs to be opened to Willimantic and the time is now with the NH to Sprfd Amtrak line going to be doubled tracked and their fees that they charge CSO per car load as well.
Based on what? There is no demand for freight at all between these two points and if you think MA is having trouble getting SCR past the voters/NIMBYs in that area, just watch what would happen if CT ever got serious about retaking the trail back for rail use.

EDIT: Sorry,... I see what your talking about with through traffic, but there is no way the costs of re-construction, let alone the years of legal battles, the studies-upon-studies and the eventual permitting processes would ever make the project worth it just to get off of AMTRAK. Not for that section. There are other more viable routes.
 #1234463  by Larry
 
I know what you are saying is true but I never thought I would see a train go from Middletown to Hartford but I did for awhile. Anything is possible and yes that track was still in place so it is not apples to apples. But I can dream can't I.
 #1234647  by FLRailFan1
 
Larry wrote:I believe that is what FLrailfan1 is saying and I also believe it would help all out, tie CSO together with NECentral. I also think P&W would also benefit from the connection as well as CNZR to get away from CSX. Just a thought but I know it will never happen.
That is what I'm saying. If a New England Central customer (say a lumber mill) had to ship lumber to home depot, it will go to Palmer on NEC, to Selkirk on CSX, back to West Springfield on CSX, to Hartford on CSO (added expense of Amtrak's cut) to home depot on CNEZ. If the route was intact, and CNEZ had trackage rights on it... it would be NEC to Willimantic, then CNEZ to Home Depot... (Cheaper). P&W could have trackage rights over it, so they could take freight off AMTRAK (save $$ for rail customers).
 #1234650  by Cosmo
 
FLRailFan1 wrote:
Larry wrote:I believe that is what FLrailfan1 is saying and I also believe it would help all out, tie CSO together with NECentral. I also think P&W would also benefit from the connection as well as CNZR to get away from CSX. Just a thought but I know it will never happen.
That is what I'm saying. If a New England Central customer (say a lumber mill) had to ship lumber to home depot, it will go to Palmer on NEC, to Selkirk on CSX, back to West Springfield on CSX, to Hartford on CSO (added expense of Amtrak's cut) to home depot on CNEZ. If the route was intact, and CNEZ had trackage rights on it... it would be NEC to Willimantic, then CNEZ to Home Depot... (Cheaper). P&W could have trackage rights over it, so they could take freight off AMTRAK (save $$ for rail customers).
So how many lumber mills that supply HD are there on NECR?
I would surmise that any, IF any, would simply put it on a flatbed trailer and send it over the road.
Whatever the carload volume that MAY be possible, AGAIN, it would in NO way justify the expense (oh, wait,... am I repeating myself here?) of rebuilding Manchester to Wilirico from scratch. If such a move were to be made, even incurring the expense of going via Amtrak from New London to New Haven and up to Hartford to be connected to CSOR that way, again the extra cost even for a regular move over time would take decades to add up to the millions of cold, hard $$ to rebuild the line from Manchester to Willi.
IF the line were still intact in some form or other other than a rail trail, things MIGHT be different, however, that is not the case.
I [almost] hate to sound like the esteemed Mr Weaver, but, well, "it aint coming back anytime soon, if ever." That's just how it is.