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  • Abandoned Rhode Island railroad tunnel could be reused

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Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

 #1217875  by MEC407
 
From The Portland Press Herald:
The Portland Press Herald wrote:Gov. Lincoln Chafee joined a team of inspectors as they ventured Thursday into an abandoned railway tunnel and surveyed the dank and dark corridor 100 feet below Rhode Island's capital city.

The century-old East Side Railroad Tunnel hadn't been inspected since it was sealed off 20 years ago. Chafee said he wanted to get a firsthand look at the mile-long corridor to determine whether it could be reused. While no plans are pending to reopen the tunnel, Chafee said it could possibly be used one day for buses to relieve congestion on city streets.
. . .
The tunnel was originally constructed to allow trains to pass underneath College Hill on Providence's East Side. The last trains went through decades ago, and the tunnel's two ends were sealed following a scuffle between local police and college students celebrating May Day.

The tunnel passes under Brown University and some of Providence's nicest neighborhoods.
Read more at: http://www.pressherald.com/news/old-r_i ... 09-27.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1217889  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
I don't think 2 lanes of buses could ever fit in there. It's barely wide enough for 2 tracks: http://arvidtp.net/zenphoto/albums/prov ... tunnel.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. No center divider at any point along the tunnel, so it's a side-swipe risk. Alternating one-way, sure...but that would be pretty awkward for a bus. The East Side Trolley Tunnel, currently used by buses, does have a double-bore with center wall for much of its (shorter) length despite its overall narrowness.


They have long considered it for possible re-use with an extension of that vaporware streetcar line they've been planning forever and ever. That would be a good use of it since it's in excellent structural shape. But who knows what century the base build of that streetcar would ever happen, and this would be a secondary appendage because they are thinking of using the old trolley tunnel in mixed traffic for the initial routing. The RR tunnel would have to pull a semi- U-turn at the east portal to get back on the street grid.
 #1217951  by GE45tonner
 
If the street car ever becomes a reality, the tunnel could easily be reused I think. Using it for buses would be, er stupid. At least that's what I think. They already have a tunnel in that area. Commuter rail is impossible, unless another bridge is to be built which isn't gonna happen
 #1218153  by joshg1
 
Color me impressed- I thought the middle collapsed. Wikipedia says it's 30' wide which is plenty wide for two buses and a Jersey barrier. But where do you go whether on rubber or steel? E. Providence and down the East Bay? Why not use 195, for buses. How deep is the tunnel under Thayer St? Which for the sake of argument I choose as an intermediate station for whatever future use the tunnel has. And don't forget the west portal is much higher than N. Main St. Right now I think this thing is a white elephant.

If I was Governor of RI, I'd ask to check the place out. Rare mileage, if you will. Then hold a press conference to cover my assets.

I read that the ruined car is a c.1980 Chevy, but I'm damned if I know what happened to the sheet metal.
 #1219034  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
joshg1 wrote:Color me impressed- I thought the middle collapsed. Wikipedia says it's 30' wide which is plenty wide for two buses and a Jersey barrier. But where do you go whether on rubber or steel? E. Providence and down the East Bay? Why not use 195, for buses. How deep is the tunnel under Thayer St? Which for the sake of argument I choose as an intermediate station for whatever future use the tunnel has. And don't forget the west portal is much higher than N. Main St. Right now I think this thing is a white elephant.

If I was Governor of RI, I'd ask to check the place out. Rare mileage, if you will. Then hold a press conference to cover my assets.

I read that the ruined car is a c.1980 Chevy, but I'm damned if I know what happened to the sheet metal.
West Portal's accessible at ground level through a back parking lot. If they opted not to touch the old viaduct incline (which right now is just paved with parking spaces) vehicles can enter/exit via Benefit St., which is the egress for that parking lot. The East portal's the one that's going to limit routings. It takes a U-turn to get back onto Gano St. Except for all the East Providence buses that pool over the Henderson Bridge or I-195 that offers up almost nothing in the way of direct routings complementing the existing downtown bus network. All of those routes, owing to their ex-streetcar heritage, fan out from the trolley tunnel at the rough geographical center of the city. It's accessible to every local route, while the RR tunnel is not. There is no Providence-proper route that would work better in the RR tunnel vs. the streetcar tunnel. They were built for different purposes, with the trolley tunnel ready-made for downtown distribution.

Where the RR tunnel is a real asset is for East Providence service, bypassing the bridges on a dedicated ROW. But to make use of it for that requires building a new river span from the east portal. That is nowhere near worth it for a bus. But very very worth it for future streetcars to India Point and downtown East Providence. Repurposing on the cheap now for buses to U-turn to Gano St. doesn't save very much time at all on the buses that currently use 195. If RIPTA wanted to tighten up schedules and increase capacity into East Providence, running more expresses out of downtown over the bridges narrows the time savings gap vs. tunnel ROW considerably. So it really ends up being about which service merits building a new river span...not which service merits re-using the tunnel. And I've got to think streetcars are the only mode that'll be major enough to make that an unequivocal win.

The planners had it right all along with their vision for the streetcar network...use the trolley/bus tunnel for downtown circulation because that's what it was explicitly designed for. And keep the RR tunnel as a long-term hold for when it's time to go to East Providence and/or run some routings cutting across the entire urban core. That works. That is a pretty elegant, non-gimmicky solution. It'll just take a couple more decades to get there given how slow the base streetcar build is progressing. I don't fault Chaffee for chasing a potential lead here with due diligence, I just hope he's not looking at this as some sort of gimmick to try to make a legacy/monument for himself amidst flagging approval ratings. Because the expense of restoring the tunnel and making it safe for 2-way buses doesn't net much operational benefit if everything is just pinging between one body of water and the other and then awkwardly backtracking into downtown to do anything useful. They already have a perfectly functional and well-utilized tunnel for doing useful things downtown.
 #1220660  by v8interceptor
 
Having walked the tunnel a number of times back in my youth I can say it it definately wide enough for a 2 lane (one in each direction) Bus Rapid Transit route. The most recent RI DOT document I've found about the tunnel mentions BRT as the best alternative, but that was from about 10 years ago.
The craziest part of the Chaffee survey was where they discussed using the tunnel as an automobile parking structure (I kid you not)..
AFAIK, the current Mayor of Providence hasn't said a word about the streetcar proposal and neither has former mayor (now Congressman) David Cicciline since he left the Mayorship.
I don't see anything at all being done on the streetcar project at the moment and frankly it seems dead for now...
 #1220806  by Noel Weaver
 
I have serious doubts that a tunnel that has not been used in maybe 25 years could possibly be in excellent or even good condition. No maintenance, no inspections, no nothing. I would bet there would be clearance issues if buses were to use this thing. I admit it could probably take less time to negotiate than I-195 does at least in busy traffic times but the cost to rehab this thing would be pretty high and I wonder if Providence could support such a project. It is probably unfortunate that the thing was shut down in the first place. In all my time on the New Haven I never rode through this tunnel although I came close one time when there was some sort of a tie-up between Providence and Boston Switch. If this tunnel and property is still under railroad or maybe government ownership there is always a chance that something good could happen but there are a lot of "BUTS" here. Maybe sometime in the future.
Noel Weaver
 #1220874  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Noel Weaver wrote:I have serious doubts that a tunnel that has not been used in maybe 25 years could possibly be in excellent or even good condition. No maintenance, no inspections, no nothing. I would bet there would be clearance issues if buses were to use this thing. I admit it could probably take less time to negotiate than I-195 does at least in busy traffic times but the cost to rehab this thing would be pretty high and I wonder if Providence could support such a project. It is probably unfortunate that the thing was shut down in the first place. In all my time on the New Haven I never rode through this tunnel although I came close one time when there was some sort of a tie-up between Providence and Boston Switch. If this tunnel and property is still under railroad or maybe government ownership there is always a chance that something good could happen but there are a lot of "BUTS" here. Maybe sometime in the future.
Noel Weaver
RIDOT owns it and it's formally landbanked. They picked that and the bridge up when they bought up all of P&W's abandonments, and then much more recently added the East Providence trackage contiguous with it after P&W cut back from India Point.

Actually, the biggest issue they had post-closure was college kids throwing raging keggars and rave parties inside of it. That's why it's blocked with heavy steel doors now. It would routinely fill with hundreds of kids at a time bringing their own electric generators and sound systems in from the east portal, creating mayham in a dank enclosed space that was tough for the cops to clear out, and leaving a godawful mess behind each time. It looks like from recent pics they've done a pretty thorough trash cleanup, because it was a filthy dumping ground for awhile there and looks very clean at track level now. I think they did that when the doors were installed as a fire permitting requirement.

Drainage is probably the biggest issue they'd have to mitigate, since that's typical of tunnels like that. But the walls were found to be in structurally good shape. Does have some awfully rude graffiti coating it head to toe thanks to the kids, so doubt they'll be giving public tours until that's tastefully covered over. :wink:
 #1224747  by bostontrainguy
 
I always thought this should have been the routing of the Northeast Corridor way back when it was being developed. If trains had gone east through this tunnel and then turned north, they would have had a longer faster 150MPH straight shot all the way up to Sharon/Canton.

The routing through Pawtucket is much too slow and curvy.
 #1224781  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
bostontrainguy wrote:I always thought this should have been the routing of the Northeast Corridor way back when it was being developed. If trains had gone east through this tunnel and then turned north, they would have had a longer faster 150MPH straight shot all the way up to Sharon/Canton.

The routing through Pawtucket is much too slow and curvy.
It's possible that goes back on the table with Amtrak 2040 and its inland HSR routing. There's no way all that traffic can squeeze through 2 tracks from Boston Switch through South Attleboro with the MBTA layover yard, the P&W freight yard, Providence Line commuter rail, and RIDOT Providence-Woonsocket (or by this point, Providence-Worcester) commuter rail all converging on that stretch. Building a new bridge is no big deal. The problem is how to reconnect the tunnel to the station. The viaduct's gone and will never be allowed back. That means there has to be a tunnel extension, descending downgrade under-street and somehow skirting under the canal and along Park Row avoiding all the new skyscrapers that have gone up since the viaduct was demolished in '83-84.

Who even knows if that's feasible from an engineering standpoint. I'm sure they'll study it in depth as the 2040 options start getting much more in-depth study, but I don't think anyone today can predict what the prospects are for any tunnel reconnection. It's beyond the ability for speculation until the engineers have their expert say on what is and is not possible, and what it would cost.
 #1225037  by NH2060
 
^^How would P&W feel about the ROW being turned over to Amtrak for high speed trains though? Does the line from East Providence to Attleboro have get much freight traffic? Or should I say.. does P&W use it all that much?

If the PVD-Boston Switch-South Attleboro segment truly gets maxed out at some point in the not-to-distant future and a separate Amtrak ROW is needed but building an adequate approach to get to the tunnel itself is easier said than done perhaps Providence could see its own "mini-Big Dig"? ;-)
 #1225159  by mbhoward
 
By any chance, does anyone have this tunnel on google maps? Or some other map where it can be seen? I'm having a hard time viewing in my mind where it is located. I have driven through and even stayed overnight in Providence from time to time but cannot picture the exact placement. Thanks.
 #1225192  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
NH2060 wrote:^^How would P&W feel about the ROW being turned over to Amtrak for high speed trains though? Does the line from East Providence to Attleboro have get much freight traffic? Or should I say.. does P&W use it all that much?

If the PVD-Boston Switch-South Attleboro segment truly gets maxed out at some point in the not-to-distant future and a separate Amtrak ROW is needed but building an adequate approach to get to the tunnel itself is easier said than done perhaps Providence could see its own "mini-Big Dig"? ;-)
P&W does a single daily local on the East Providence Secondary and East Junction Secondary. E. Providence Sec. is the one that passes over the NEC at the state line then runs on a street median before ending about a mile north of the old drawbridge. East Junction Sec. is the 'old NEC' alignment that starts in Attleboro and meets the E. Providence Sec. in the same spot just north of India Point and the drawbridge. P&W installed a brand new piece of connecting track where the branches converge so they could tear out the old junction and all the India Point tracks. So the branches are now functionally one single V-shaped branch coverable without reversing. I don't know how often they take the NEC shortcut back home from Attleboro these days or if the schedule has them going Central Falls-E. Providence-Seekonk-Attleboro and then reversing back the way they came.

There's 1 large customer in Attleboro literally sandwiched between the NEC, E. Junction Branch, and the former MBTA layover yard with 3 sidings full of tank cars connected to the branch side. So they do go literally to as far to the end of the line as they can without physically touching the NEC. Looks like 1 other active customer in Seekonk and couple of not-so-active looking sidings in Seekonk and East Providence, but beyond that most of the old alignment is residential or woodland much like the NEC is in Attleboro. I doubt it would ever be a problem. East Providence Branch is by far the denser half of that run with George Bennett Highway is wall-to-wall sidings. But that branch will never be a candidate for passenger service because of all that street-running trackage.

South Attleboro station is slated in Amtrak's NEC Infrastructure Master Plan for a total teardown/rebuild with platforms relocated onto 2 new track turnouts. It'll become a 4-tracker in the immediate station vicinity, while the rest of that NEC stretch remains a 2-track railroad. Solves for the commuter rail dwell times at least. On-NEC freight was never an issue. CSX's 2 Mansfield-Attleboro dailies stick mostly to the 4-track portion, P&W's Port of Davisville run crams all loads into a single run per day to avoid chewing schedule slots, and the only other freights between Route 128 and New London are one-off customers in Stoughton, Kingston, and Groton that get very intermittent run-as-directeds. Canton-Mansfield, Attleboro Jct.-Boston Switch (except when P&W takes the overhead shortcut home), and Kingston-Groton have zero freight traffic whatsoever.



The bigger problem is simply the overcrowding in Central Falls and Pawtucket between Boston Switch and downtown. You have the P&W main immediately converging, with a couple miles of high/wide-clearance FRIP track needed to reach the main P&W yard. They may keep their on-NEC moves miserly, but that yard is the anchor for all RI freight so they must spend all day puttering around that facility in close proximity to passenger trains. You then have the replacement Pawtucket station in final design for construction in 5 years that'll serve Providence Line trains, Providence-Woonsocket on the P&W, and (in some service iterations) the northern turnback station for in-state Westerly commuter rail. And you have the large new MBTA layover yard opposite the P&W yard, which will get bigger and busier still or need to spread out to additional sites within half-mile or so of there when it becomes home base for all permutations of RIDOT in-state commuter rail. That stretch of track between Boston Switch and downtown is going to get oversatured in years you can count on 2 hands, nevermind in 2040. And much of that congestion is unsolvable.
 #1225197  by The EGE
 
mbhoward wrote:By any chance, does anyone have this tunnel on google maps? Or some other map where it can be seen? I'm having a hard time viewing in my mind where it is located. I have driven through and even stayed overnight in Providence from time to time but cannot picture the exact placement. Thanks.
The alignment isn't perfect - I'm just guessing from the portals - but you get the general idea.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=21 ... 4,0.084543" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1225441  by fogg1703
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:I don't know how often they take the NEC shortcut back home from Attleboro these days or if the schedule has them going Central Falls-E. Providence-Seekonk-Attleboro and then reversing back the way they came.
Have they ever utilized these trackage rights? I had no idea they existed, had to look on the PW websites route map. Are they much like the Middleboro secondary rights to Newport, they have them by never use them?
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:There's 1 large customer in Attleboro literally sandwiched between the NEC, E. Junction Branch, and the former MBTA layover yard with 3 sidings full of tank cars connected to the branch side. So they do go literally to as far to the end of the line as they can without physically touching the NEC
That is Teknor Apex, a longtime CSX customer. PW also delivers ballast and equipment to the MBTA here at East Junction. According to the CSX route map, CSX has trackage rights to the state line, however Metals USA in Seekonk is PW served.