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  • MBTA F40PH preservation?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

 #1190442  by p42thedowneaster
 
The folks at North Conway seem to really like the 216, (turbo charged gp35) but like you say, this is probably a unique example because they do have the longer run and tougher grade. I doubt they would want to run a solo f-unit again regularly do to the directional visibility issue, and of course double-heading ruins the whole efficiency.

I think there is an option at CCCR, because they do have the HP needs and expanded service possibilities, but I think having to wye the locomotive constantly will drive the crews crazy. Maybe its worth the trouble...or maybe they would be better with one of the GP40MCs to gain the same benefits with bidirectional views, but probably at a much greater cost.


There is, however, a fundamental difference between MBTA 1000 and the other exAmtrak F40PH locomotives in service. This locomotive could be preserved simply for its historical significance rather than its practical performance. Unlike the Grand Canyon F40s and Maine Eastern F40s' this would hopefully be saved as-is, commemorative plaque and all! I think it would be appreciate, even if it only ran sporadically, or even if it never ran again. I don't know of any F40PHs that have been preserved like this, aside from maybe the Amtrak heritage NPCU.
 #1190456  by MEC407
 
The other option would be for them to use a cab car or NPCU on the other end of the train. Seminole Gulf Railway, for example, uses a pair of gutted F-units as NPCUs on their passenger trains. (I believe these units also provided HEP in their Long Island Rail Road days; not sure if SGLR still uses them for HEP or not. Regardless, HEP capability wouldn't be needed for CCCR if they've got an F40PH at the other end. :))

(Thinking out loud: could an RDC be set up as a cab car to control a locomotive pushing from the other end of the train?)
 #1190459  by MEC407
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:This locomotive could be preserved simply for its historical significance rather than its practical performance. Unlike the Grand Canyon F40s and Maine Eastern F40s' this would hopefully be saved as-is, commemorative plaque and all! I think it would be appreciate, even if it only ran sporadically, or even if it never ran again. I don't know of any F40PHs that have been preserved like this, aside from maybe the Amtrak heritage NPCU.
I agree, and I think it's important to figure out whether folks are simply interested in saving an MBTA F40 from the scrapper and seeing it operate somewhere else, or if they're interested in preserving/restoring an MBTA F40 in its factory-original state (or at least appearance) and preserving all the MBTA history that goes along with it. In some ways that could actually be easier because it might mean only a "stuffed and mounted" preservation, rather than an operational preservation. I think we'd all like to see an operational preservation, but there might also be consensus that having #1000 sit somewhere as a "monument" of sorts would be preferable to having it repainted in Music City Star colors and hauling commuters in Nashville (just as an example). Then again, others might find that more palatable than having it stuffed and mounted. There will be LOTS of different opinions about this, which is part of what makes the whole process quite challenging.
p42thedowneaster wrote:I don't know of any F40PHs that have been preserved like this, aside from maybe the Amtrak heritage NPCU.
The only other one I can think of is Amtrak #231, although that unit has since been repainted in SP "Daylight" colors. I thought they planned to eventually do a full factory-original restoration but I don't know if that's still the case or not. Great example of how things can change when circumstances, priorities, and resources don't pan out the way we expect them to.
 #1190460  by p42thedowneaster
 
MEC407 wrote:
(Thinking out loud: could an RDC be set up as a cab car to control a locomotive pushing from the other end of the train?)

I think Hobo RR in Lincoln has a couple of the old Boise Budds that were rebuilt for push-pull service...I think those were set up as cab cars, but I certainly can't confirm that, nor could I suggest they would still be intact!
 #1190491  by TomNelligan
 
For a few years beginning in late 1977 or early 1978 the MBTA ran a bunch of RDC trainsets pulled first by B&M GP7s and later by FP10s and secondhand GP9s, with the locomotive being controlled from the RDC cab when in push mode. They modified the RDC controls and jumpers according to a system that was developed by a B&M mechanical department gentleman whose name I don't remember. Those RDCs retained one of their own engines to provide hotel power since there was no HEP.

The Boise Budds were something different; those were RDCs that had been depowered and converted to HEP coaches and cab cars by Morrison-Knudsen in Boise, Idaho.
 #1190532  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:There is, however, a fundamental difference between MBTA 1000 and the other exAmtrak F40PH locomotives in service. This locomotive could be preserved simply for its historical significance rather than its practical performance. Unlike the Grand Canyon F40s and Maine Eastern F40s' this would hopefully be saved as-is, commemorative plaque and all! I think it would be appreciate, even if it only ran sporadically, or even if it never ran again. I don't know of any F40PHs that have been preserved like this, aside from maybe the Amtrak heritage NPCU.
Yes, and this is important to remember before we get too far ahead of ourselves. Nearly all of the 17 units are going to get resold or leased to other commuter operators for a few more years of stopgap fleet expansion because they are in good enough shape for daily service. They'll get repainted, some may get modified. And MPI will warranty them or swap for other units when they conk out. The commuter rail power need nationwide and financial crunch are that acute that old beaters will fly off the shelves and will get ridden to the last drop. AMTK's units were mostly thirdhand re-sales to the scenic and museum operators. We're talking another 10 years before whatever's left of the 17 units is available for that purpose.

The only one to talk about now is "Mr. Commuter Rail". It is the sole unit that the T would consider reserving from the re-sale program in its T livery. Even the other 2 named F40PH's, 1001 "James E. McGrath - The Chief Conductor" and 1002 "Richard A. Andrews" are too valuable for re-sale to set aside. It shouldn't be two hard to find one preservation group capable and willing to take #1000, but we really are only talking one engine from the T's dispersals. The rest are getting scattered nationwide and will change hands a couple more times before they start popping up--slightly worse for wear--for the skunkworks aftermarket.
 #1190543  by Otto Vondrak
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:The folks at North Conway seem to really like the 216, (turbo charged gp35) but like you say, this is probably a unique example...
You're forgetting that 1) Conway Scenic Railway is NOT a museum. They are a tourist railroad that employs some vintage equipment, but that's it. 2) If Conway Scenic were to acquire this MBTA F40, most likely it would be repainted as Conway Scenic and not be preserved in its MBTA paint scheme. You said preserving it in MBTA paint was pretty important to you.

Just some food for thought.

-otto-
 #1190545  by MEC407
 
Part of the reason why CSRR acquired the 216 was because they desperately needed a locomotive with dynamic brakes. When they "went shopping" at Waterville, they considered getting a GP9 but they settled on 216 because most of the dynamic brake system was still intact, whereas the dynamics were completely removed from the GP9s. I suspect they would've preferred a GP9, or better yet a second GP38 if one had been available, but that wasn't the case.
 #1190790  by Otto Vondrak
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Yes, and this is important to remember before we get too far ahead of ourselves. Nearly all of the 17 units are going to get resold or leased to other commuter operators for a few more years of stopgap fleet expansion because they are in good enough shape for daily service...
We all seem to be merrily ignoring this point made by Mr. FLtDvP... But it's all just academic until you identify a home (which I'm almost certain would not be RMNE or the CSRR, but I speak for neither, so that's just my opinion), set a budget for maintenance and restoration, and find out if one is even available for preservation...

Cart, horse, riders... Which one comes first?

-otto-
 #1191158  by p42thedowneaster
 
I've never been to the RMNE, so I'm not familiar with their collection or operations....hope to see it this summer actually.

I agree, CSRR would have no interest or actual operational benefit in acquiring the F40PH. The only way I can see an F40 in North Conway is via the 470 Club. They already have NHN 1757...so 1990s north station theme?

I think the easiest place to bring it is the Hobo-Winnepesaukee....they're on theB&M New Hampshire main, which has T service from BoN to Lowell, (and for a short while went to Concord, NH). Now I'm not saying they need it, or want it, but I think it would at least fit in there. It's a shame they do not have a traditional railroad museum, as the Clark's have quite a nice railroad collection. I feel they are often overlooked by the more serious rail fans who prefer the scene in N. Conway.
 #1191378  by Otto Vondrak
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:I've never been to the RMNE, so I'm not familiar with their collection or operations...
If you're not familiar, why would you suggest it? I mean, I'm just curious as to the thought process. Also a quick glance at RMNE's web site would probably reveal all you need to know. Seriously, check it out, there's a lot of good info on there. http://www.rmne.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree, CSRR would have no interest or actual operational benefit in acquiring the F40PH. The only way I can see an F40 in North Conway is via the 470 Club. They already have NHN 1757...so 1990s north station theme?
Some stuff from 470 Club is indeed on display at North Conway, but it's still not a museum. Also, what makes you think Conway Scenic wants to have a "1990s North Station theme" in front of their Victorian station and pre-Kennedy trains?

I'm not saying your project is unworthy, but I am trying to explain why finding a home for display or operation somewhere in New England is going to be difficult at best.

-otto-
 #1191501  by CN9634
 
Otto, let the guy at the least discuss the idea. Who cares if it is feasible or not, it doesn't effect you either way! Just don't say anything if you don't agree.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/naysayer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


As for the F40, IMO the best way of preservation would probably be static display or cab-car. This means removing the prime mover, which still has a lot of resale, parts and/or rebuild value, and using the unit as platform. As much as it may pain some people at the thought of removing the guts, it may be a good way to finance such an endeavor if properly proposed to the party who owns the unit. The value of the frame can be a write off tax wise while the prime mover could be used by the RR. Also the traction motors and other components could be salvaged.
 #1191527  by Otto Vondrak
 
CN9634 wrote:Otto, let the guy at the least discuss the idea. Who cares if it is feasible or not, it doesn't effect you either way! Just don't say anything if you don't agree.
Don't you hate it when facts get in the way of a good discussion? :-) You're right, I better shut up and keep my facts to myself...

-otto-
 #1193070  by boatsmate
 
Another Museum everyone is forgetting about is the Old Colony and Fall River RR Museum. They already have an MBTA Budd Car with NH heritage. A F-40 would be a nice addition to there either operating or stuffed. they have done a great job of restoring and maintaining the cars they have. and this would be a great addition.

Bill