MBTA F40PH preservation?

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p42thedowneaster
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MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by p42thedowneaster » Sat May 25, 2013 11:49 am

Sooo....

B&M EMD F-7 #4266 was built in 1949, served the B&M for 30 years and arrived for retirement in North Conway around 1980 at age 31.


MBTA F-40PH #'s1000-1012 were built in 1978 and have operated for 35 years in commuter service. Will any be preserved?



Perhaps we will see MBTA F40PHs rolling on the rails of the Pemi River in Lincoln, NH with the old B&M/MBTA Budd cars in tow?

Maybe the 470 club will rescue a set much like the B&M f-7s for duty in Crawford Notch?

Perhaps the RRMo NE would be wiling to preserve some??

Berkshire Scenic? Seashore Trolley? Etc...


All I hope....is that if any are preserved, they remain in MBTA paint. You wouldn't want to see 4266 in anything other than B&M colors would you?

Noel Weaver
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by Noel Weaver » Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 pm

Not a bad idea but ideas need money, I hope you will contribute a starter for this.
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by F-line to Dudley via Park » Sun May 26, 2013 1:07 pm

MPI is going to take all of the T's Screamers off the property when the HSP-46 order is complete and send them into their re-sale program. Just like they did with MARC's old GP40WH-2's when they replaced that fleet with MP36's. The Geeps are advertised right now on their website for lease or re-sale: http://www.motivepower-wabtec.com/doc/M ... ochure.pdf. As-is condition for someone needing a cheap old beater in a hurry...with rehab and a robust service and support program for buyers who want something in slightly better condition. It's how the T ended up getting a few of those MARC units to pinch-hit in passenger service while its own GP40MC's were out for overhaul. MPI leased them as-is, MARC livery and all...then took them back when they either started failing or were no longer needed.

The F40PH's are going to be re-sold on the aftermarket by MPI exactly the same way. A majority of those units are going to live on in continued service for shortlines and excursion RR's. And may, like the MARC Geeps, even go back into full-time commuter rail service for some agency needing short-term power ASAP. Only 1 of the T's original fleet of 18 was ever wrecked/scrapped. The 17 remaining units are all in active service, with not a single unit out in the shop per the NETransit equipment tracker. They may be worn out, but if every single one of them is still in daily revenue service on the 5th busiest commuter rail system in the country...they are more than good enough for the numerous small RR's who clean out the re-sale market. If MPI has to scrap any at all it'll only be to cannibalize parts for a major midlife overhaul of some of the others units for an interested customer. Most of them are going to stay in circulation as active engines.



If there's one to save in a museum in preserved T livery, it's engine #1000, the "Henry D. Hersey - Mr. Commuter Rail" (commemorative under the engineer's window, next to the flag). The very first piece of all-new passenger RR equipment the MBTA ever purchased, and the oldest named train on the system. BET employees have a real soft spot for this engine:
Image
35 years of pics: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... 484&Page=1

Mikejf
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by Mikejf » Sun May 26, 2013 3:49 pm

Hard to believe those are that old. I remember when they were new and it didn't seem like that long ago, but I guess it was.

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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by jaymac » Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

What is the painful part of the nostalgia about the 1000s and kin is the reminder of the time when EMD was not viewed with disdain by GM management.
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Otto Vondrak
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by Otto Vondrak » Tue May 28, 2013 11:11 am

p42thedowneaster wrote:MBTA F-40PH #'s1000-1012 were built in 1978 and have operated for 35 years in commuter service. Will any be preserved?
Why do you feel this is a significant piece that needs to be preserved?
Perhaps we will see MBTA F40PHs rolling on the rails of the Pemi River in Lincoln, NH with the old B&M/MBTA Budd cars in tow?

Maybe the 470 club will rescue a set much like the B&M f-7s for duty in Crawford Notch?

Perhaps the RRMo NE would be wiling to preserve some??

Berkshire Scenic? Seashore Trolley? Etc...
Here's how I know you have never been involved in the world of railway preservation. You have simply listed a bunch of places in New England that are home to vintage railroad equipment without any consideration of whether an MBTA F40PH would fit the scope of the collection, have a place to be stored, have a budget for maintenance and restoration, or have active volunteers willing to work on this project. And I'm only scratching the surface.
All I hope....is that if any are preserved, they remain in MBTA paint. You wouldn't want to see 4266 in anything other than B&M colors would you?
I'd take your query a little more seriously if you had prepared even the roughest proposal on how you would consider procuring an F40, the costs involved, how you would move it to its new home, and how much it would cost to maintain and operate (and yes, paint). Go on, I'll wait... Or were you waiting for "someone else" from "some museum" to do it?

Yes, tell me I'm being a mean old know-it-all, but these are facts. Let's explore them together and I'll try to show you why railway preservation is such an expensive proposition that is often difficult to see through to completion.

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p42thedowneaster
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by p42thedowneaster » Tue May 28, 2013 11:50 am

Otto,
You're being a mean know-it-all.

Second,
I have volunteered, and I have donated.

Third,
I simply like the MBTA F40PH locomotives. I have ridden them for years, but this summer they are being replaced with new power.

Is this not the time to voice interest in preserving some of them before it's too late?
Did we not talk about saving MEC 252 on here long before CSRR acquired her?

Finally,
This is the New England Railfan forum...where people who like trains talk about trains...specifically in NE.
This was not intended to be a serious proposal to anyone in particular! I hope i have not offended any of the museums I have mentioned.

Perhaps there is only limited interest...it just seems like this is a good time to start talking about it.

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MEC407
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by MEC407 » Tue May 28, 2013 12:07 pm

I think your original question was valid, p42. You implied that saving a 35 year old F40PH in 2013 is just as worthwhile as saving a 30 year old F7 was in 1980, and I don't think many of us would be able to argue with that basic premise. Both types of locomotives represent a specific period of time and a specific geographic region, both were highly visible throughout their service lives, both were significantly more advanced than the locomotives they replaced, and both were well-loved by railfans and railroaders.

The second part of your question was basically, "Will it happen?" I don't know the answer to that.

Otto is correct that it wouldn't be easy, it wouldn't be affordable, and it might not even be possible... but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be worthwhile. There are lots of good projects that aren't successful. I've had the unpleasant experience of trying to save a locomotive, and failing, but I still feel good about the fact that I tried to save it.

If it's any consolation, saving a "T" F40 would be a helluva lot easier than saving a MEC U18B. Note that I said "easier," not "easy." :wink:
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p42thedowneaster
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by p42thedowneaster » Tue May 28, 2013 1:33 pm

Thanks MEC407
I also support your effort...is it too late now?

Thanks F-line for the info on the F40PHs! I had no idea of the back-story for #1000. Being the first new locomotives bought by the T, it would seem worthy of some thought.

Maybe MPI would be willing to donate a loco to a 501C3 charity to acquire a valuable tax deduction?

Here's a question....are the screamers too loud to operate on a scenic railroad?
Maybe they're better for static display? They look good sitting still....I always like the high bell arrangement.

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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by F-line to Dudley via Park » Tue May 28, 2013 1:48 pm

p42thedowneaster wrote:Thanks MEC407
I also support your effort...is it too late now?

Thanks F-line for the info on the F40PHs! I had no idea of the back-story for #1000. Being the first new locomotives bought by the T, it would seem worthy of some thought.

Maybe MPI would be willing to donate a loco to a 501C3 charity to acquire a valuable tax deduction?

Here's a question....are the screamers too loud to operate on a scenic railroad?
Maybe they're better for static display? They look good sitting still....I always like the high bell arrangement.
They're only loud relative to the other T locomotives. No separate HEP engine means the prime mover has to work harder to power the consist, so they're louder at station stops, louder at cruising speed, louder anywhere. But you're talking degrees of difference...they're pretty much par for the course as "modern" DC diesel-electric tech goes, so there are lots of much older antiques out there in use more capable of waking the dead.

The T's units are 100% identical to Amtrak's retired F40PH's and were ordered the same time. Dozens of AMTK units are still running on scenic RR's and for museums. Maine Eastern used to have 2 ex-AMTK units before selling them. They're already old hat for the skunkworks and all-volunteer outfits. The T's units should fetch equal interest, bBut MPI does intend to re-sell these things for active service. And since there are just as many ex-AMTK units running in regular commuter rail service today I would hedge that most of these things are going to go first as lease beaters for other power-strapped, cash-strapped CR operators. The museums and scenic operators will probably have to wait a few years until they have a crack at them as thirdhand pickins'. Much like with the AMTK units that mostly got laundered through commuter rail before trading hands again to some smaller players.

"Mr. Commuter Rail" is the only one they really should think about setting aside in its current livery, because it is a unit of unusually special significance. And gets treated with an unusual degree of reverence at BET.

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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by MEC407 » Tue May 28, 2013 2:53 pm

p42thedowneaster wrote:Here's a question....are the screamers too loud to operate on a scenic railroad?
They're not loud at all if they're running in non-HEP mode. Quite a few scenic railroads use cars from the pre-HEP era. If one of those railroads acquired an F40PH, they would most likely operate it in non-HEP mode, in which case the locomotive would not be "screaming" (unless it was pulling a very heavy passenger consist up a grade!).
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by TomNelligan » Tue May 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Relative to this subject, I wonder if anyone here knows whether the more recent vintage MBTA cars at Seashore (I'm thinking of the Boeing LRV and the Blue Line pair) were donated or purchased? I'm certainly not suggesting that Seashore would ever want an F40 -- it's not a diesel museum and I bet its track couldn't even take the weight -- but I wonder if there is any recent precedent for the T to donate equipment to museums. Of course there are still the issues of finding a place that would house it, paying movement costs, and paying for enough maintenance to keep it from turning into a pile of rust.

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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by The EGE » Tue May 28, 2013 7:34 pm

Seashore approached the MBTA about the Bluebells and apparently received a very quick yes. The T gave them for free, but Seashore had to pay a third party to ship them to Maine.

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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by p42thedowneaster » Tue May 28, 2013 9:03 pm

Similar to Tom's thinking....
I also note the relationship between the Hobo RR in Lincoln, NH and the MBTA. They occaisionally do work for the MBTA; most recently they worked on a caboose for them. The Hobo also received a small fleet of the former MBTA RDC cars and of course the B&M scheme GP10 #1921.

Since the Hobo operates push-pull trains, I wonder if an F40PH might fit in rather well since directional visibility is somewhat less important. Now, I'm certainly not suggesting they sideline the ALCOs...but who wouldn't want an F-unit too.

If the #1000 became available as a donation to a 501c3, perhaps it could then be leased to the Hobo RR (if they want it) much like the 470 club leases #4266 to CSRR.

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: MBTA F40PH preservation?

Post by Otto Vondrak » Tue May 28, 2013 11:27 pm

p42thedowneaster wrote:Otto,
You're being a mean know-it-all.
Well, I've been told!
Second,
I have volunteered, and I have donated.
That's great that you've volunteered somewhere, and donated to something, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to your F40 project that you proposed.
Third,
I simply like the MBTA F40PH locomotives. I have ridden them for years, but this summer they are being replaced with new power.
I like lots of stuff, too. But that doesn't make 'em a candidate for preservation.
Is this not the time to voice interest in preserving some of them before it's too late?
I think "Why?" was a valid question on my part. Make the case.
Did we not talk about saving MEC 252 on here long before CSRR acquired her?
I couldn't tell you one way or the other, but there was a compelling case to potentially save MEC 252. Not so much about saving a random F40.
Finally,
This is the New England Railfan forum...where people who like trains talk about trains...specifically in NE.
Oh, snap! I ALWAYS FORGET THAT. THANK YOU.
This was not intended to be a serious proposal to anyone in particular!
Clearly. If you weren't serious, why are you getting so defensive? And if you weren't serious, why are you wasting our time?
I hope i have not offended any of the museums I have mentioned.
I'm only offended because I've offered to walk you through the steps and process in your little thought exercise, but now you're all mad at me because I won't play along with your original fantasy. I thought this was the New England Railfan Forum, where we come together to discuss our favorite topics and learn stuff from one another? Do you want to learn how to save a piece of railroad equipment or not? Or is it more fun to call me names? You proposed that "someone" save an F40, and that we drop it off at "some museum" to take care of it, and that's about as far as we've gotten.

I was once like you... But then one day someone offered me the red pill, and I followed them down the deep rabbit hole of railway preservation...

-otto-
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