Railroad Forums 

  • Downeast Scenic Railroad (DSRX) Discussion - 2005-2010

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

 #126290  by MEC407
 
An organization known as the Downeast Rail Heritage Preservation Trust is actively working on a project to establish the Downeast Scenic Railroad, which will operate on the Calais Branch. They plan to do this in phases, starting with a run from Bangor to Ellsworth, then Ellsworth to Schoodic Mountain, then Schoodic Mountain to Machias, and then Machias to Calais.

Unlike some of the other proposals that have cropped up recently ("New England Railroad" being one of them), this one appears to be serious and credible. There are a number of very experienced and intelligent people working on this project -- and unlike New England Railroad, they're not afraid to say who they are! DRHPT has also hired a major railroad consulting firm that has an incredible amount of experience and expertise -- Stone Consulting.

They have a web site at http://www.downeastscenicrail.org/

The web site includes information on the project, maps, a list of frequently-asked questions, and a list of the major players involved with the project (which certainly adds a lot of credibility).

From what I've seen so far, this looks like something that might actually get off the ground.
 #126608  by bwparker1
 
This group means business, on the assumption that they are actually contributing some time toward the project.

George Betke is a co-owner of Farm Rail Systems, which runs the very successful Shortline the Finger Lakes Railway

Gordon Fuller is in charge of the M&E, who have also been quite successful.

Stone Consulting and Design is a successful Rail Consulting Firm in Warren, PA

Gary Landrio works for the Livonia, Avon and Lakeville Railroad Group, who also runs the extremely successful shortline Western New York & Pennsylvania, which has featured the return of Mainline Service over the Former Erie Between Meadville, PA and Hornell, NY, part of which had sat idle for 10+ years.

I think their cost estimates are a bit low, but if anyone can bring any sort of service back to that line, this group has the knowledge/political connections to do it. I bet you they are also scheming to resurrect some Freight operations as well, as we all know freight is what pays the bills.

Brooks



Advisors

George Betke Jr.,
President and CEO, Transport Economics Inc.
Douglas B. Chapman,
Attorney at Law and Chairman, Coastal Resource Center

Jonathan Daniels,
President and CEO, Eastern Maine Development Corporation

Peter Dearness,
President and General Manager, New England Southern Railroad Co.

Douglas J. Ellison,
Vice President Strategic Rail Projects, Stone Consulting and Design, Inc.

Gordon Fuller,
CEO, Morristown & Erie Railroad

Christopher G.L. Hall,
Economic Development Consultant and Former State Senator

Daniel Innis, Ph.D.,
Dean, College of Business, Public Policy & Health, University of Maine

Gary Landrio,
Vice President of Rail Operations, Stone Consulting and Design, Inc.

Bronson Platner,
Attorney at Law

Skip Rogers,
General Manager, Federal Marine Terminals in Eastport and
Chairman, Eastern Maine Railroad Development Commission

Jack Sutton,
President, MRG, Inc./ Downeast Rail

Thomas J. Testa,
President, Downeast Rail Heritage Preservation Trust, Inc
 #126635  by MEC407
 
bwparker1 wrote:This group means business, on the assumption that they are actually contributing some time toward the project.
They definitely are doing that. And as you noted, they've got the right people on board to make this thing a reality. I'm really looking forward to seeing this project progress.

 #126665  by trainhq
 
I would assume they are primarily interested in freight.
Certainly, I would think it very unlikely for Maine DOT
to pay to upgrade the tracks to 50 mph passenger quality, as along the Rockland branch, what with the Downeaster extensions to Yarmouth and Brunswick
awaiting $$$$. In addition, the passenger levels on the
Rockland line were modest during the recent excursion
runs; I don't think they could be used to justify that
level of expenditure.

 #126686  by MEC407
 
If you visit their web site, you'll find lots of information about what their plans and goals are.

This quote pretty much sums it up:

The project's initial components will be a self-sustaining excursion railroad – to be called the Downeast Scenic Railroad – and a historic museum/depot. Long term plans for the railroad include rehabilitating the remaining 36 miles to Calais and using the railroad in its entirety for a mix of freight, excursion, and passenger service.

 #126738  by trainhq
 
Looks like for about $10 million they could get something going. They state that
"Funding will be derived from
a combination of gifts, grants and net sales revenues from excursion tickets, depot
sales and museum admission."

That's not a huge amount of money, so it's certainly
doable; however, I would assume that the grants would come from the feds and not Maine DOT.
 #126802  by bwparker1
 
I think you would be surprised at the amount of $$$$$ Maine will put towards the rail, even for passengers. You could easily argue that the $33 million dollar upgrade of the Rockland branch and Carrelton Bridge was overkill, there is almost no freight on the line, and the biggest shipper, Dragon, does at least 75% if not more of its total volume through the Port of Rockland to Barge, hence no real need tp upgrade the line from the Dragon plant west to Brunswick. There is really even any potential business. Maine Yankee waste came out in gons, and the traffic is drying up if it has not already. There is a LPG dealer in Waldsboro currently not using rail, and BIW has inactive tracks into the Bath facility. There are very few other shippers on the line, I think the 33 million was spent primarily on the hopes of getting Passenger traffic from Portland to Brunswick and then on the M&E service to Rockland.

I commend Maine for the $$$ they invest, but I have always questioned the strategy, as they never secured the middle link between Portland and Brunswick. (watch out for Big G) The best stop on the entire ride would be Freeport, as it is entirely walkable from the tracks, even for the elderly and obese. Portland's current station is not in the Old Port, Brunswick has an OK location, but there is not as much as there is in Freeport.

My two cents.

Brooks

 #126922  by Cowford
 
More of the same... bellying up to the public feeding trough. The concept of "self-sustaining" is laughable. It'll just be more taxpayer dollars down a rat hole... maybe the state hasn't learned it's lesson from the Rockland branch investment.

Freight development... Woodland traffic revenue would be skinny, as they would be competing with the NBSR. Oil/gasoline traffic- forget it. They'll never be able to compete with truck out of Searsport/Bucksport. Blueberries??? C'mon! So what else is there??? Washington County has NEGATIVE population growth because there is nothing there to do. Maine's problem is largely attitude. The people simply don't want industrial economic development... at least the type of development that requires rail. They're not NIMBYs, but NIMSs (not in my state). The Harpswell LNG project should make that glaringly obvious. Meanwhile, New Brunswick continues to build shape its economic future with a new LNG terminal, refinery expansions, etc. Maine's got a choice... continue to promote the state as an eco-museum where the only good development is no development, or actively promote the construction of large-scale industrial projects that may be eye-sores, but bring jobs and $ to the state. How many of the pro-Calais branch folks here would support a full-sale refinery in Eastport??? Or in your own town?

etc

 #127020  by Noel Weaver
 
I hate to be a "naysayer" but this project seems to me to have a huge
hurdle to overcome or maybe several hurdles to overcome.
Good leadership and brains do not always create funds necessary for a
major project such as this one would be.
I explored the area about 20 years ago and although it did not look
hopeless, the railroad was not in use at the time and thus not being
maintained either.
It will be a huge project to just get this line into shape for service again
and then as previously pointed out, just who is going to use it?
Tourist season in this area is great in the summer but very weak for the
remainder of the year. The railroad will need upkeep all year round and
that means brush removal, tie work, ballast work, crossing signals and
snow removal in the winter among other things.
It seems to me that it would make more sense to fix up the old Lower Road and get some service up toward Augusta, Waterville and Bangor.
Waterville in particular being a college town should generate some
business. Who knows, Guilford might even cooperate fully this time
around, they got a decent railroad to Portland out of the last deal.
Noel Weaver

 #127108  by Richard Glueck
 
I would love to see it happen, but then I'd also like to see a full-size Zeppelin too! I've been down the line and yes, there are lots of scrub trees to remove, washouts to fill and right of way to bank. Still, I think a small ex-Canadian Pacific ten-wheeler and three coaches would be hard pressed to meet the demand for tourist riders between Ellsworth and Machias during the summer. It would be a risky proposition, but an ideal setting. Remember, neighboring Acadia National Park is the second most visited National Park in America, and tourists flood through here coming and going to eastern Canada as well. There are motels and restaurants galore along the Ellsworth strip. The rebuild of the line is the big hurdle.

 #127121  by MEC407
 
According to the web site, this would not be the same scale of rebuild that was done on the Boston-Portland route or the Brunswick-Rockland route. They would be using most of the original jointed rail, replacing about half of the ties, and new ballast as necessary. So it's not going to be nearly as expensive as the aforementioned upgrades. Expensive, yes, but not too bad by comparison. I'd say this line has more tourist potential than the Rockland line, oddly enough.

 #127188  by Noel Weaver
 
MEC407 wrote:According to the web site, this would not be the same scale of rebuild that was done on the Boston-Portland route or the Brunswick-Rockland route. They would be using most of the original jointed rail, replacing about half of the ties, and new ballast as necessary. So it's not going to be nearly as expensive as the aforementioned upgrades. Expensive, yes, but not too bad by comparison. I'd say this line has more tourist potential than the Rockland line, oddly enough.
The track on this or any other line has to meet certain federal standards
in order for passenger trains to operate on it. If they are only going to
patch the thing up, they will end up with a 10 MPH or 15 MPH railroad and
I for one would not care to ride any distance through the woods at those
speeds.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this happen provided they find the funds to do it but I think it would be a gross misuse of federal funds
for something of this nature when Amtrak is begging at its knees and
there are better projects everywhere.
The railfans as a whole do not support these things, ask any tourist railroad and they will tell you that over 90 per cent of their revenue comes
from the general public and not from railfans. I am talking train riders
here and not association members if indeed there is an association
involved in something of this nature.
These type of operations tend to do better if they are reasonably close to
major population centers and the Rockland Branch is much closer to
Portland, Boston and other major centers than Ellsworth is.
Noel Weaver

 #127214  by Cowford
 
Noel's right...

If someone proposed a short tourist operation between, say, Ellsworth and Cherryfield, the prospect of success would be brighter. These guys are just biting off way more than they can chew... and, at the risk of being paranoid, you have to question the backers' motives. Fishing for taxpayer dollars to fund consulting and engineering studies, possibly an operators contract, etc?

 #127321  by MEC407
 
Noel Weaver wrote:If they are only going to patch the thing up, they will end up with a 10 MPH or 15 MPH railroad and I for one would not care to ride any distance through the woods at those speeds.
I believe they are looking to bring it up to a solid Class II rating... 25 freight, 30 passenger.

 #127336  by Cowford
 
Dan, could you elaborate on what freight potential you see on the branch? Any forecasts on commodities and tonnage that you can share?
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