• Long/Medium Distance Maine Amtrak Service

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
You have to figure that for starters you shouldn't be thinking beyond Portland. For one, NYP-PTC itself is an extremely tiny Year One demand market. The whole reason you can do it is that by "hiding" it inside the routing of two high-demand routes southwest and north of Boston gives it the protection it needs to get put on a permanent schedule. We are expecting that in Year One the ticketholders doing an end-to-ender on any given train may not number more than a few dozen (and no doubt far less than that on crappy weather days well out-of-season), and that the bulk of the patronage will be using it as semi-express Inlands and semi-express Downeasters with the same near-complete demand turnover around Greater Boston. But it hides those low end-to-ender margins so well that it affords a good, long time to slow-cook that demand until NYP-PTC starts bringing in tangibly lucrative margins of its own. Please don't overestimate this as if there's some demand dam about to burst in Worcester or Springfield or New Haven that's going to stampede on these trains. That isn't there today. It may only be there in middling quantities in 10 years from now. But by getting such an operationally low-profile service established, Maine has all the time in the world to slow-cook that naturally slow-cooking demand build into something significant.

Just don't race ahead of the timetable and try to microwave a slow-cooked meal. These patrons aren't thinking Northern Maine one-seat. The schedules, even with the minimum infrastructure requirements for Day 1 of 1) completed Springfield Line upgrades + 2) completed B&A/Worcester Line upgrades + 3) a rounding error's worth of Grand Junction uprating...are still very long. And that's because the NEC and NH Main/Western Route trunks themselves are still leaving so much infrastructure slack on the table on how they could be performing. You need those New Haven Line restrictions zapped with the bridge replacements and all manner of other mandatory state-of-repair and congestion mitigation moves. You need the underwhelming speeds from Somerville to Wilmington on the NH Main tightened up; going Class 5 there would really bleed some time off the clock on both ends of Anderson and make the DE in Massachusetts about as taut as it's going to get. You need lots of congestion mitigation in the Andover-Bradford stretch of the Western Route where the freights approaching Lawrence Yard from both directions are a big toilet clog...one that's going to get much worse as freight volumes increase. You have dozens of spots on the Western Route in NH and ME where there are still speed restrictions to play whack-a-mole on, still spots underperforming their B&M heyday, and lots of work to do on capacity enhancement to stay ahead of those same freight congestion increases that are starting to rear ugly head in Massachusetts.

^^All of this mainline bolt-tightening is worth dozens of minutes or more on the schedule after baseline NYP-PTC service has initiated, and gives that small seed food for growth. Maine has to understand that there will never be a day where the Western Route main isn't #1 investment priority. Every job of trying to expand their network's one-seat options heightens--significantly--the urgency of a new round of upgrades to the bread-and-butter and triaging with their neighbors on the other bread-and-butter mains. Otherwise the seed doesn't grow fast enough, and they're out too far on a wobbly limb trying to reach further and further north. Maine has limited means of multitasking big-ticket items, so they have to prioritize. If they want to get Augusta, etc. strung up...how much does one-seat from Day 1 matter to them? It increases the non-optional investment in big bucks to get the Western Route to bleed some significant time off the clock. If that north-of-Portland seed-planting involves transfers...maybe you circle wagons first around the intra-staters for planting the flag up there and defer the one-seats until you can throw a full-on moneybomb at the Western Route later. They probably do not have the resources to do it all in one mega moneybomb without falling flat on faces. Prioritization matters.

And I think the trunks matter way more than the stems if you want that slow-cooker to cook a little less-slowly.




As for reverses...yes, both BON and PTC are reverses. Operationally that probably doesn't make a big difference since they are hundreds of miles apart. But if Portland still has aims on eventually getting a union station fully integrated with downtown and off that Mountain wye, then that's another point in favor of strengthening the trunk before overvaluing sending New Yorkers way out on the stems.
  by gokeefe
 
I think the discussion of the Western Route is really well placed and it captures one of the political paradoxes that faces any planner looking at this service. Specifically, in order to get more service north of Portland you have to be willing to make significant investments south of Portland.

I am watching the station situation very closely in Portland. I actually think that the current location is going to be "baked in" for the next 50+ years if Thompson's Point gets the anticipated full build out. NNEPRA didn't really want it to go this way and they clearly were leaning towards station options that were closer to the Old Port but it now appears more and more likely every day that the Portland Transportation Center will in fact be the permanent location for Portland's passenger rail service for some time to come.

The plans included in Thompson's Point for a major parking garage will lock this in as no other. The parking garage I've seen in the plan illustrations looks to be about 300-500 spaces (if not more). That additional parking capacity is sorely needed for the PTC which currently is full to capacity virtually every day of the week. Obviously many of the people parking there are not in fact riding the Downeaster but taking the bus to Logan. It's perfectly understandable, but this has an impact on the ability of the PTC to serve rail.

I also agree that the "thru" rider count from Boston would be very low initially but as mentioned plenty of time to "slow cook" it. I still like the idea that any rider miles off the NEC would be revenues that NNEPRA could capture. That's not necessarily a good reason on its own to go to Worcester but it certainly feels compelling. I do think that demand from Maine would be easy to underestimate. Highway traffic on I-295 lately has been getting quite bad. Traffic is now congested in both directions for an extended rush hour period each day. It's not I-495 around Lawrence in MA yet but its not as one sided as it once was. There was a time not long ago when if you were driving in to Portland in the evening there would hardly be any traffic at all as most of the commuters were leaving the city.
  by MEC407
 
Rockingham Racer wrote:Anybody know how the executive bus service between Ogunquit and NYC went? And let's note: it was a summer thing only, not year round. That may be saying something about the level of demand.
MEC407 wrote:Good question. I haven't heard anything, good or bad, about the OGT-NYC bus. It's worth noting that Ogunquit is a town of 1,000 residents that essentially shuts down between Columbus Day and Mother's Day. I don't think any sane person would expect that service to be anything other than seasonal. Portland is a city of 70,000 (125,000 if you count its immediate neighbors) with year-round attractions and more restaurants per-capita than any city on the US East Coast. Demand for NYC-POR or POR-NYC service is likely to be very, very different than its OGT counterpart. I would also expect that service to draw riders from as far away as Augusta and Biddeford. You're looking at more than half of Maine's population if you count the entire Augusta-Biddeford region.

Looks like the OGT-NYC bus was doing well enough for C&J to add a second round trip this summer:
Portland Press Herald wrote:C&J Bus Lines is adding a second round-trip service between Ogunquit and New York City beginning next month.

The Portsmouth, New Hampshire, company said the additional service for its executive-class bus will start May 20 to meet growing demand for more summer routes.
Read more at: http://www.pressherald.com/2016/04/14/b ... c-service/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by gokeefe
 
That is really good to see. More is definitely better. One way or another these services will ultimately end up supporting further development of ground transportation to and from Maine.
  by MEC407
 
It's REALLY good news for Ogunquit. It's one of the most easily-walkable summer destinations in all of Maine; direct nonstop bus service is going to be very appealing for folks who want to vacation there car-free.

Not that Ogunquit has any trouble attracting hundreds of thousands of visitors regardless of transportation mode, but carless New Yorkers with plenty of disposable income are a great demographic for a town like Ogunquit.

At some point the innkeepers and chamber members in Kennebunkport are going to start asking "How do we bring that bus service here?"


The PPH article I quoted earlier today has been updated with the following which is also relevant to our topic:
Portland Press Herald wrote:Southwest Airlines has added a fourth daily round trip to Thurgood Marshall International Airport in Baltimore. The flight will operate through Nov. 4.

The additional flight will leave Portland at 9 a.m., arriving in Baltimore at 10:25 a.m., and the return flight will leave Baltimore at 8:20 p.m. and arrive in Portland at 9:50 p.m. Southwest added a fourth daily flight last year, but ended the service on Labor Day.

“That two extra months of flying is almost 9,000 additional seats in market,” said Zach Sundquist, assistant airport director, in a release announcing the service. Airport officials cited increased interest in Maine’s fall foliage as a reason Southwest chose to extend the season for the fourth flight.
  by gokeefe
 
BIG year for vacation travel coming up. I will watch with interest what happens with the Downeaster.
  by Cannonball
 
A long news story about Passenger Rail Service to Bangor, Maine in the Feb. 18, 2017 Bangor Daily News.
Passenger trains in Bangor: A vision of the future or a pipe dream?

BANGOR, Maine — It was a vision that captured the audience at a City Council meeting on Wednesday enough that one councilor warned against getting starry-eyed over it: Passenger trains running from Boston to Bangor as part of a traffic hub built on Washington Street.

I think it will take 10 years to get trains running in Bangor,” said Rep. Michelle Dunphy, D-Old Town, who has a bill pending with the state Legislature seeking a Maine Department of Transportation study of the feasibility....

There does seem to be renewed interest in bringing passenger rail to Bangor. [President Donald Trump’s administration] is talking about making funds available for multimodal transportation and developing rail infrastructure.

...Bangor would need a passenger service feasibility study before anything could happen.

A 2013 study of extending passenger service from Portland to Lewiston-Auburn estimated that cost at $138 million. The 30-mile St. Lawrence and Atlantic rail corridor that connects Portland and Auburn is owned by the state. The study recommended stops in Falmouth, Yarmouth and Pownal, in addition to the two endpoints.

By comparison, Bangor is about five times the distance from Lewiston or Brunswick.

Source: https://bangordailynews.com/2017/02/18/ ... pipe-dream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by gokeefe
 
There is a lot of support coming from Bangor lately on passenger rail service. This article only scratches the surface.
  by CarterB
 
Might as well just extend it a bit to Orono or even Old Town, to serve U of ME.
  by gokeefe
 
CarterB wrote:Might as well just extend it a bit to Orono or even Old Town, to serve U of ME.
I have wondered the same myself, especially given the fact that Bangor proper might not be a perfect location to turn a trainset. Also seems worth considering the fact that the University of Maine (Memorial Union) is a 19 minute drive to "Penobscot Plaza" (former Union Station site). If Old Town/Orono is a better site from a rail operations perspective then it's probably worth considering ...
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. O'Keefe and the other advocates from "Down that way", it would seem that if the proposals outlined at this topic come to pass, Maine will surpass Vermont for my guess of having more route, as distinct from train, miles per square mile of area.

Oh well, I guess there are dreams up there of service along the BAR to Edmondston, the MEC to Vanceboro, and the CP-M border to border (and if VIA were to become anything beyond a political joke, Montreal-St John).

But let it be noted, I respect the optimism you collectively bring to this Forum.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by gokeefe
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:But let it be noted, I respect the optimism you collectively bring to this Forum.
Mr. Norman,

I greatly appreciate it.

The sentiment regarding passenger rail service in that part of Maine is quite strong, and lately in particular among elected officials. I don't anticipate it will ever go away, especially as the Downeaster continues to see success and growth.

It is almost certainly years away of course but the discussions that take place now may assist in policy formation later. It helps when people are not "in the dark" about certain options or route choices. Most elected officials are in fact in such a state which is not a fault so much as it is an ordinary state of affairs.

Taking a look over on Google Maps you can see that Bangor has done a very good job of preparing a nice potential station site at the Bangor Waterfront. There are a lot of obvious options there for station development and site improvements. Layover track options are relatively plentiful in that area as well. Old Town while not nearly as well prepared has some very good railroad real estate that has great potential for reuse in passenger service.

It is worth mentioning that advocates (who may be in a position to do something ...) in the Maritime Provinces have consistently indicated that passenger rail service to Bangor would cross a threshold that they feel is significant to their efforts ...
  by NS VIA FAN
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Oh well, I guess there are dreams up there of service along the BAR to Edmondston, the MEC to Vanceboro, and the CP-M border to border (and if VIA were to become anything beyond a political joke, Montreal-St John)
Don’t think the Atlantic will ever be back.....but if we’re dreaming.....once a passenger train reaches Bangor, let’s extend it to a jct with the Eastern Maine/NB Southern Railway then onto Saint John. And why stop there? We could have a GULL to Halifax!

http://www.nbsouthern.com/NBM-railways-railroads.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(and Gilbert Norman....VIA a political joke? How so? On a per-capita basis, VIA caries just a many passengers per year as does Amtrak)
  by Cosakita18
 
Some more leglislative chatter regarding passenger rail expansion in Maine:

http://www.wcsh6.com/travel/lawmakers-p ... /418978302" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They are also hopeful that the Legislature will pass legislation that will put a bond issue before voters in 2018 that would create transit corridor districts in different communities.
It provides a $50 million bond for that and can be used to create inter-modal connections for the bus, train and even bike lanes, according to Sen. David Miramonte, (D-Camden)

As for the line between Portland and Lewiston, an important step is securing money to upgrade 13 miles of state rail that runs between Yarmouth and Danville Junction in Auburn.
It is also key to expanding service into western Maine that eventually connects to Montreal.
The hope is work could begin on the Portland-LA line in 2019.
  by CarterB
 
Would service to Bangor be through Lewiston ...or Brunswick?
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