• Long/Medium Distance Maine Amtrak Service

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Jehochman
 
I agree with F-Line that the first step is to get the Inland Route going, preferably to North Station. As I understand, South Station has capacity limits and can barely handle more trains without substantial investments.

If there were trains from the NEC to North Station, the Downeaster transfer becomes much easier, ridership increases, and soon enough it makes sense to merge the trains, providing single seat transportation from Maine to New York (or Washington) and points along the Inland Route.

It also would boost ridership from the northern suburbs of Boston, and take some pressure off the Mass Pike and Route 128/I-95, which are parking lots every day at rush hour, and sometimes at other hours too.

The best part of this idea is that Massachusetts and Connecticut are already planning to restore the Inland Route, so Maine can just piggyback on that investment.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Jehochman wrote:I agree with F-Line that the first step is to get the Inland Route going, preferably to North Station. As I understand, South Station has capacity limits and can barely handle more trains without substantial investments.

If there were trains from the NEC to North Station, the Downeaster transfer becomes much easier, ridership increases, and soon enough it makes sense to merge the trains, providing single seat transportation from Maine to New York (or Washington) and points along the Inland Route.

It also would boost ridership from the northern suburbs of Boston, and take some pressure off the Mass Pike and Route 128/I-95, which are parking lots every day at rush hour, and sometimes at other hours too.

The best part of this idea is that Massachusetts and Connecticut are already planning to restore the Inland Route, so Maine can just piggyback on that investment.
South Station is fine for a tippy-top addition of +10 Amtrak trains per day on the B&A, so we're not talking anything revolutionary here. The far Atlantic Ave.-side platforms assigned to Worcester commuter rail don't require any crossing movements that foul other station traffic, so those trains can shoot in and out cleanest and most self-contained of anything that uses the station. A widely-scattered sprinkling of Amtrak trains on the B&A that have to deadhead in/out of Southampton between runs isn't going to crowd anyone out. South Station's fast-approaching capacity limit is very NEC-centric; the surging traffic levels to/from the NEC-proper require more crossing movements to fan out to more platforms. The crossing movements to reach the middle platforms in the terminal increasingly foul deadhead slots from the commuter rail layover at Widett Circle, which at busiest times of day requires commuter rail trains to lay over on those platforms for lack of clean yard access. They can't scoot in/out fast enough in the increasingly hard-to-come-by slots into the yard, and they're fast approaching the limits of how many dispatch tricks they can pull to dance around this (e.g. sending out the most recent arrival as an "any-line" departure, because that just ends up fouling more tracks if it has to cross way over to start on a different route). That's the ultimate price for half the station tracks getting lopped off decades ago; what was once a nicely symmetrical fan-out and set of interlockings is now very asymmetrical and squished to the Atlantic Ave. side. Past a certain traffic density, which we're now starting to see, the traffic distribution starts behaving like it's missing a limb.

Amtrak gets priority on the yard deadheads out of necessity because each of their trains has to get looped, crew-changed, restocked with food service, etc. So it's much less a burden on them (for now...different story post-2030). MBTA's the one staring at a hard ceiling on traffic growth if they can't fix the issue with these excessive criscrossing movements. And only way to do that is to make the platform distribution near-symmetrical again and loosen up the spacing on the crossovers. i.e. Worcester and the Old Colony + Fairmount lines hugging the far sides and never fouling each other, NEC fanning out in the middle half all by itself and never fouling the sides, crossing movements to/from the yard spread further out and weighted NEC-centric so stuff can clear the platforms quickly without getting pinned into an on-platform layover. That's what ends up being a 40+ year solution for the capacity pinch.



BON is limited by the drawbridges and the 4-track pinch over the draws. Induces a similar issue of clearing the platforms with a yard scoot vs. laying over on-platform. But big Boston Engine Terminal being right on the other side of the draws gives dispatch more tricks to pull than the constrained South Station terminal district, and northside traffic is flat-out more diffuse than southside with not nearly as aggressive expansion actively underway. So it's not at a crisis level yet. Eventually they will have to put Draw 3 back in and knock down the former Spaulding Rehab Hospital building (now just overflow office space for Mass General Hospital) to fan out a little bit more on the westerly side of the terminal. Traffic off the Fitchburg Line/Grand Junction, like Worcester on the southside, hugs the far side platforms and doesn't have to make any crossing movements of other traffic to get on/off the platforms and through the drawbridge. Traffic on/off the NH Mainline is the next-least invasive. So a single round-trip off the Grand Junction is no-impact; general-purpose expansion of the Downeaster schedule is minimal-impact. The limit (which they're not as close to reaching BON vs. BOS) is when you start throwing multiple Route 128-turning high-frequency routes and New Hampshire commuter rail on the pile. Then Draw 3 is going to be necessary. It won't be nearly as expensive a project as South Station because that ex-Spaulding building is acknowledged by its transient current tenants to be expendable, and the rest of the affected area is just bare asphalt. Maybe another 15 years they'll need to get on that for due diligence's sake, but NYC-POR could easily be celebrating its 10th anniversary before then and adding a second daily trip.

Actually, Amtrak's probably going to see a pinch sooner than that if the DE schedule fattens enough that they need to layover >1 more trainsets at BET. Space is getting a little tight there...more because of lack of appropriate facilities for stuffing southside cars and work equipment crowding the northside out of its home base. There'll be options for juggling stuff around, since southside will be gaining a small storage yard at Beacon Park a quick scoot off the Grand Junction once MassHighway straightens the Mass Pike viaduct through the vacated freight yard. Real-world impact of the BET storage crunch is more political (or schoolyard-political): expect more T vs. Amtrak sniping at each other over who's pinching whose space. That's the T's relished opportunity for payback after so many years of Amtrak bitching at them for hogging storage at Southampton.
  by west point
 
As an observer from afar one could expect an incremental approach.
1. Complete BOS - Worcester. How close is MBTA to finishing the upgrades BOS - Worcester ? That includes full bi-directional signaling, the new universal CPs, distressing rail, all stations with both inbound and outbound platforms preferably high level, etc..
2. Restore Worcester - Springfield double track fully bi-directional.
a. How much of the 54 miles needs new track ?
b. Any cost estimates ?
c. Time line ?
d. With the above can timetable time be reduce from the present 2:15 to less than 2 hours ?
3. Start inland Amtrak service to South station
a. Now it is Equipment needed.
4. Rebuild Grand crossing. As well universal crossovers from Worcester to grand at CP ( university / Beacon park ? )
5. At sometime if demand is present additional train(s) to BON - Portland can be initiated.
a. More equipment needed
6. Start one Amtrak inland service to North station but only cross platform connections to DownEaster. That way Amtrak does not delay the present BON - Portland trains if inland train(s) are excessively delayed. WASH - BON is about 460 miles with many possibilities for delays.
a. More equipment
7. If demand is shown to be high enough then maybe an overnight POR - WASH train can be initiated. Sleeper demand can be determined if 66 , 67 ever get a sleeper and it is determined how many would ride the POR - WAS train.
a. More equipment

All this new equipment is going to be in competition for allocation with all the other single level trains in the east including possible additional trains. Its not easy. How does Amtrak get the funds for new cars when there is so much other demands for capital funds ?

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  by FCM2829
 
Does anyone have any intel on the 'hotel train' proposed by Francois Rebello from Montreal-OOB? What is the status of this project? Is there a topic tab already started on it I missed?
Pls Reply
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Good grief; what will someone dream up next!! :(

http://www.keepmecurrent.com/sun_chroni ... f887a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sera-ce "off avec leurs têtes " si quelqu'un ose parler anglais à bord ? (Will it be "off with their heads" if anyone dares speak English on board?)
  by BM6569
 
FCM2829 wrote:Does anyone have any intel on the 'hotel train' proposed by Francois Rebello from Montreal-OOB? What is the status of this project? Is there a topic tab already started on it I missed?
Pls Reply
They didn't get it going in time for this year. The project isn't dead but it's moving slowly.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
BM6569 wrote:
FCM2829 wrote:Does anyone have any intel on the 'hotel train' proposed by Francois Rebello from Montreal-OOB? What is the status of this project? Is there a topic tab already started on it I missed?
Pls Reply
They didn't get it going in time for this year. The project isn't dead but it's moving slowly.
"Theoretically possible" still means that while there have been multiple failures, there's a small chance that if you chartered another airplane and acquired another 100 pigs to throw out of it that one of them may yet fly!


↑ This is what Old Orchard Beach town councilors actually believe. ↑
  by FCM2829
 
What sort of "multiple failures' are we talking here? Failure to negotiate leases w/ host RRs? liability? NNEPRA agreements? equipment? station/track slots? track upgrades? qualified crews?
This is part of a bigger inquiry about Boston to Montreal service, either day train or night train, Amtrak/non-Amtrak, Via Inland rte & Vermont or via MBTA/PAR/StL &A/CN. If there is a conversation on this board already underway, please point me in that direction.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
FCM2829 wrote:What sort of "multiple failures' are we talking here? Failure to negotiate leases w/ host RRs? liability? NNEPRA agreements? equipment? station/track slots? track upgrades? qualified crews?
This is part of a bigger inquiry about Boston to Montreal service, either day train or night train, Amtrak/non-Amtrak, Via Inland rte & Vermont or via MBTA/PAR/StL &A/CN. If there is a conversation on this board already underway, please point me in that direction.
All of the above. You do realize how many separate RR's this has to traverse to get from Point A to Point B, and the regulatory compliance required with the FRA, ADA laws, Customs, etc.? There is so much paperwork that has to be shuffled around before they can even get to squaring logistics like trainsets, schedules, ticketing in two different countries, and so on. It isn't bureaucratically possible to get something like that up and running in less than two years, yet that's what they're promising. The agencies and RR's they have to get all that sign-off from move at varying paces from "take a number" to "glacial". "Glacial" being the accurate descriptor for how quickly CN and Pan Am return phone calls.


There's no evidence that this is a scam outfit--the partners are definitely a bit more reputable than that Golden Eagle guy selling Mountain Division snake oil--but if they admit they haven't got the approvals in-pocket now (have they got any on the U.S. side of the border? I've only seen VIA Rail referenced) there's zero chance they will have them in time for the 2017 season, let alone the 2016 season that still appears on their website and the 2015 season they were pitching last year. This is a wishful-thinking's 2018 best case, and that's giving them a very elastic benefit of the doubt that they have every duck in a row on equipment, ops, and other logistics by the time they've collected the last approval. This is all very, very hard to swing. That's why there are so unprecedentedly few examples of skunkworks private long-distance operations that actually manage to make it from first sales pitch to inaugural run.

They're not doing their credibility any favors overestimating to absurd degree their ability to square paper hurdles that can't be sped up by the largest of rail operators, let alone a tiny startup. If the pitch is "OK, the Montrealer and offshoots are beholden to years of bureaucracy before the states can spend, but we're private enterprise so those timetables don't apply"...and then out the other side of mouth there's the itemized list of the very same types of paper bureaucracy the Montrealer, etc. are beholden to which private enterprise too much slog through...where do they get away with working Old Orchard Beach and other local communities up into a froth with starter schedules that contradict the very calendar math they just laid out?


Yes...that's setting even the best-intentioned outfits up for failure. If some basic applied knowledge re: "whoo...this regulatory red tape takes way longer than we thought; better adjust timetable accordingly" nobody's going to be listening to them when they show up come 2019 for a 5th consecutive year at an OOB town meeting touting "next Fall...for real this time!" These are marketers, no? Did they take a course in Marketing 101?
  by Jehochman
 
Marketing 101 teaches "under promise and over deliver."

That's why I tell friends that long distance Amtrak is like camping on wheels. If they don't expect too much, they will be happier.

If these are marketing guys, why don't they charter private cars and arrange these trips as occasional tours, rather than regularly scheduled service? Would that reduce bureaucracy or at least leverage existing bureaucracy? What can be done to cut the red tape?
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
This was one nugget of recent progress with this venture I was able to find buried in a different story about Conway Scenic:

http://www.conwaydailysun.com/newsx/loc ... wing-smoke" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Conway, NH Town Manager] Sires said that at the meeting he attended, Canadian entrepreneur Francois Rebello had discussed a Train Hotel from Boston to Montreal, passing through Portland, Berlin and Gorham.

According to Sires, Rebello reported that the owner of the rail line was requesting unlimited insurance on the train service. He requested that the Regional Planning Commission work with commissions in Maine and Vermont to do a study on the service, looking at the issues and benefits.
St. Lawrence & Atlantic/Gennesee & Wyoming is the line owner in question, since it covers the route miles that cross the state lines in all 3 states. Unlimited liability insurance does not put a cap on maximum payouts like limited liability insurance does. For a very small operator seeking to insure itself, that has to be considered a problematic setback. If it's one of the primary issues compelling a request for the MPO's in all 3 states to coordinate on a feasibility study, that request indicates that some amount of public subsidy may become necessary to square overhead costs that are beginning to project out less favorably than first anticipated. Not necessarily fatal because size of the cost gap hasn't been quantified or disclosed...but a decided setback for the business goal of starting service that's financially independent out-of-box.

Unfortunately, insurance coverage is one of the cost items that can make or break the business model of a private excursion operation. Limited liability is a pretty crucial 'get'. The numerous short-haul excursion operators--both private and nonprofit--who run on state-owned trackage or through one line owner's lightly-used territory can usually secure those affordable limited liability rates. Those good rates get much harder to come by once you start plotting routes that cross over multiple privately-owned lines; Class I trackage or lines (like a G&W subsidiary) owned by billion-dollar conglomerates; and lines that do consequential amounts of intermodal, time-sensitive, and/or interchange freight where the line owner/operator also has to mind their own insurance rates.

It would be great if that weren't such a sticking point, because it would lower the barrier of entry a lot for private enterprise to target unfilled niches in the passenger route network. But it is what it is; insurance is expensive, and very few outfits have the scale to either pay it or pay it over a consequential stretch of route miles. This is the kind of stuff that wouldn't deter an outfit like Iowa Pacific, since they are one of the singularly unusual and nearly unprecedented big-pocketed shortline holding companies with a national portfolio that dabbles in private passenger service with almost equal vigor as freight. But it's a dream-killer for the tiny indies and most prospective startups.
  by FCM2829
 
According to Sires, Rebello reported that the owner of the rail line was requesting unlimited insurance on the train service. He requested that the Regional Planning Commission work with commissions in Maine and Vermont to do a study on the service, looking at the issues and benefits.
Translation: 'We don't want to play T-ball with somebody we don't know. Come back when you are this tall'
I imagine CN & PAR will follow suit. This explains quite succinctly why even the regional Class 2s prefer to deal with state agencies and multi-state companies.

Question is, how deep are their investors prepared to dig in their pockets for an insurance policy which is suitable to all parties? And would this policy protect Train-Hotel from any and all indemnification? According to the Train'Hotel website, revenue is currently being generated by the attachment of a lounge car to the Adirondack, if it is truly in operation. How much money is there in the third party lounge car operations game anyhow?

It sounded good. What I'd really like to see is true intercity service under a proven operator. Seems more apt to be of use to communities along the route if it was a day train which stopped at hours which were not the middle of the night and moved at tourist RR speeds. What's the cost of raising the track to Class III Yarmouth to Montreal?
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Class 2 to Class 3 wouldn't be something affordable on the SLR main without lots of public subsidy given the pretty large route miles spread through 3 states. It's a very well-maintained line as Class 2 track goes--they take very good care of their physical plant--but for the type of freight SLR moves they don't in the near- or mid-term future have a profit motive for increasing freight speeds from 25 to 40 MPH (i.e. 40 to 60 MPH passenger). NECR and P&W have historically maintained Class 3 over large segments of their mains (and PAR has many practical reasons it should, but baffling aversion to doing so). However, it's apples/oranges by what the percentage pie of their carloads looks like up and down the mains. Their pie pieces just happen to prioritize moving faster in order to maximize profits. And SLR's pie just isn't divvied up with the kind of time-sensitive traffic that makes Class 3 track a compelling self-investment. Each bridge route is going to differ case-by-case in whether it fits the profile to motivate self-investment in faster track. No two RR's are going to give exactly the same answers in bulleting out the pros/cons.

So...if they don't need it, it falls to the states and the passenger considerations to float it. Which makes it moot in any practical sense for the margins an indie passenger operating startup has to live in.
  by gokeefe
 
I have given quite a bit of thought to the potential for Northeast Regional service to and from Maine lately. There are several ideas which in my mind seem to stick. Plenty of assumptions and creativity but here is what I have been contemplating:

1. Twice a day frequency, departing from Waterville and running via Lewiston-Auburn/PAR Freight Main Line (possibly with one frequency split off via Augusta in the future) to New York Penn Station via Boston (North Station).

2. I have always been an advocate of running via Worcester and Providence and still am due to the revenue advantages ..... however, .... the more I think about this though the more I wonder if it really would in fact be a better idea just to take Grand Junction and run via the NEC. I cannot recall if this would require a second reverse move, if it did this would need to be changed. If it didn't I think on balance there is in fact a very serious argument to be made in favor of running via the NEC (even though I would regret the loss of MA revenues for trains running through Worcester and Ayer).

I am now convinced of the value to communities further north in Maine having a "one seat" ride into Boston and that this would be a primary marketing point for the service. Frankly I feel stupid for not thinking of it this way sooner. Of course people would want to have a direct ride into Boston. If they are going to ride all the way to New York the additional 60 minutes +/- on the schedule due to the stop in Boston probably isn't going to matter. It also significantly improves the revenue picture and is complimentary to the Downeaster.

For the sake of discussion I am assuming that layover facilities and servicing would be available in Waterville and that necessary track and signal improvements would be funded. Interesting to think that POR-BON would have 7 roundtrips per day if this service came to fruition. Also interesting to consider the value of stops such as Route 128 having a one seat ride to Maine. At least from a capital expenditure stand point this would be much easier and consequently more feasible initially.
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