• Candidate Positions on Amtrak/HSR

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by SouthernRailway
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:I'd rather support a candidate that doesn't have to assumed to be lying about their non-support for passenger rail. If you support passenger rail then support candidates that actually says they support passenger rail.
Lying about support for passenger rail goes both ways. I seem to recall Bill Clinton going on and on before the 1992 elections promising to build HSR around the country, but nothing much happened. I strongly support passenger rail, but it's one of several issues that I feel strongly about, and I realize that a specific political office is just one of many that can influence rail, and that a politician's statements don't mean that the policy will actually be put in place.
  by Ken W2KB
 
trainmaster611 wrote:
NellieBly wrote:Yes, indeed. Let's leave all the "important decisions" to courts, unelected bureaucrats or, better yet, to machines.

To quote from Steely Dan's "IGY"

...Just machines to make big decisions
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision
We'll be free when their work is done,
Eternally free, yes, and eternally young...

That'll work.
I never suggested that we should have anything (even metaphorically) like having decision making machines. I'm expressing frustration that these people are making decisions in areas where they don't have any expertise.
You have in a nutshell described 99% of federal legislation and its legislators.
  by neroden
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:I'd rather support a candidate that doesn't have to assumed to be lying about their non-support for passenger rail. If you support passenger rail then support candidates that actually says they support passenger rail.
Ahem. I'm feeling pretty cynical about the top of the ballot in 2012. I may be offered the choice of the guy who says the right things but refuses to actually fight for them, or the guy who doesn't believe anything and says whatever each audience wants to hear. Alternatively, there may be a dangerous lunatic ideologue option.

I will probably protest-vote for a no-hoper -- after all, I live in a "safe state" where my Presidential vote doesn't matter anyway, thank you Electoral College. At least there will probably be better choices downticket.

If nobody can top my cynicism I suggest we retire this topic. :wink:
  by gprimr1
 
neroden wrote:
Jersey_Mike wrote:I'd rather support a candidate that doesn't have to assumed to be lying about their non-support for passenger rail. If you support passenger rail then support candidates that actually says they support passenger rail.
Ahem. I'm feeling pretty cynical about the top of the ballot in 2012. I may be offered the choice of the guy who says the right things but refuses to actually fight for them, or the guy who doesn't believe anything and says whatever each audience wants to hear. Alternatively, there may be a dangerous lunatic ideologue option.

I will probably protest-vote for a no-hoper -- after all, I live in a "safe state" where my Presidential vote doesn't matter anyway, thank you Electoral College. At least there will probably be better choices downticket.

If nobody can top my cynicism I suggest we retire this topic. :wink:
I strongly discourage protest voting. I live in a state were a lot of people protest voted and we got a bad governor. Protest voting may feel good for a few minutes, but the effects will be felt the next 4 years.
  by 25Hz
 
I have a few things to share on this topic...

One: This guy is in league with cutting & no increased revenue camp.

Two: Without more frequent service and a proper 3 class system, ticket revenue will stagnate. That's a whole huge issue unto itself.

Three: Most politicians do not understand the dynamics of public/mass transportation, they lack the training & education.

Four: If any of these loose doorknobs win the election, amtrak will be the least of our concerns.

The mark of a great leader is in seeing needs and filling them, not seeing a need and taking what is there away.
  by 2nd trick op
 
First, let me add my voice to those who believe that threads such as this one have to be permitted if this forum is to have any relevance; almost all of us here have attained enough maturity to carry on such discussions with restraint and respect, thanks largely to the hard work of a series of great moderators.

My personal politics and Libertarian registration are guided almost exclusively by a belief that the free interplay of supply and demand is going to fine-tune the economic system within a tested democracy. The state may regulate and "interfere". but only up to a point the underlying economy can sustain. As such, it's usually very hard for me to find reasons to support any Democrat to the left of the late Sens, Mike Mansfield and Henry Jackson, unless the Republican opponent is clearly in the thrall of blatant racists or other non-economic ideologues.

That being said, I find a lot to like in Mitt Romney, for the same reasons I liked fellow Massachsetts pol Gov. William Weld and Mayor Giuliani of New York. Contemporary realpolitik operates on a muiltpicity of axes --- economic, social, change via direct election vs executive or judical action, and within that framework, issues sometimes develop core constituencies divided along other lines; in this case I'm thinking particularly along urban vs rural concerns, which paralell the blue state/red state conflict in large part. So far. Mr. Romney has shown a considerably better ability to understand that concept than any other Republican candidate (The current occupant of the White House, and his entourage, irrevocably gave away their closed-mindedness with the comments made about rural voters during the Pennsylvania primary last time around --- and Rick Perry is as hamstrung by Texas provincialism as Mr. Obama is by Chicago cronyism.)

As I have opined in other posts, I believe that the root causes of the Great Reccession are going to be very difficult to address, and that the continuing pressures of a rapidly-globalizing economy are going to force a shift of national priotities, with the shedding of a great deal of "pork" a necessity. Under those conditions, Amtrak LD, conceived by bureaucrats undisciplined by the markets, and tailored to the expectations of a generation now gone from the scene, is going to be a very prominent target.

But shedding the LD albatross would provide a one-time opportunity for the development and expansion of badly-needed regional and exurban services, preferably with more local participation, control and financial responsibility, and designed around both the need to reconcentrate travel in markets where the density favors a public-transport option, and the undesrtanding that the same public does not want to be forced into something out of the pages George Orwell, and will likely offer strong resistance if the perceived right to personal mobility appears to be under attack.
Last edited by 2nd trick op on Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by neroden
 
To gprimr1: remember, I live in a safe state. And one with late primaries. Due to our goofy electoral college system (and our goofy Presidential primary system), I *know* my vote doesn't matter. I don't protest-vote in elections where my vote could actually make a difference; I'm an extremely tactical voter, in fact. I would prefer election reform so that my vote DID matter.

To 2nd trick op:
But shedding the LD albatross would provide a one-time opportunity for the development and expansion of badly-needed regional and exurban services,
No. It wouldn't. Why would you even imagine that it would?

Money doesn't work that way, particularly in a political allocation process. There isn't some fixed pot of money which goes either to long-distance trains or to regional trains. They attract different politicians, and so in reality the subsidies for them are quite independent. Perhaps long-distance trains are fighting with Essential Air Service for funding, or perhaps with national parks, or perhaps with expressways, or perhaps with small-town tourist attractions -- but certainly not with short-distance trains. The funding streams for the two have been subject to wildly separate pressures for a long time.
  by neroden
 
2nd trick op wrote: As I have opined in other posts, I believe that the root causes of the Great Reccession are going to be very difficult to address,
They're not hard to address -- except politically. :-P

The root causes are fourfold:
(1) allowing banks to operate in an irresponsible "wildcat" fashion, which has *always* been a cause of busts, throughout history. Adam Smith called for bank regulation precisely because he'd seen one of the earliest "modern" banking busts, in Scotland. This is the *proximate* cause of the disaster.
(2) mismanagement of the fiscal and monetary tools of government, contrary to what we *know to be* best practice. We had low interest rates and deficit spending during a boom, followed by "austerity" in a bust, which is backwards (pro-cyclical rather than countercyclical). This is what made the disaster *worse*.
(3) maldistribution of wealth. Rich people simply don't spend as much of their income as poor people. Accordingly, an economy with too much wealth in too few hands starts to shut down due to lack of activity.... This is intricately linked with the deregulation of the banks and is also why we can't get out of the disaster through "consumer spending".
(4) dependence on oil, which is happily choking any spontaneous attempt at economic revival.

Only #4 is at all difficult to address, technically. The first three are solved problems (Glass-Steagal, Keynesian policy, progressive taxation). For #4, we pretty much know what to do, too (renewable energy construction, Pigovian tax on greenhouse gas emissions), but even if our government doesn't do what is desirable, much of private industry is doing its best to get off oil.

The problem is fundamentally political. The idea that giant banks, which have a government license to effectively create money, and which have formed a cartel, and which have executives who basically write their own salaries -- the idea that these operations need to be tightly regulated so that they don't blow up the economy -- this should NOT be controversial. But it is, here and throughout Europe. We have a problem.

I personally don't expect this problem to be solved by our current sclerotic political system, and I really don't know what's going to happen because of that (people don't tolerate 10% unemployment for long, though).

I do know that calls for "cutting pork" are a good way to make the Depression worse. In fact, useless pork-barrel spending is a plain help to an economy with large numbers of out-of-work people, as long as the spending is domestic and goes to people in the bottom 99%. Though not as good as directly *useful* spending, it still gets money into circulation, by putting it into the hands of people who are poor enough that they spend it (...on useful things). So it gets the economy going.

Perhaps we will *continue* to have politicians in power who don't understand macroeconomics. If so, expect further civil unrest as people will be unhappy about rising unemployment. Or perhaps we will get politicians who do understand macroeconomics. It's hard to tell when they talk out of both sides of their mouths, though.
  by Dick H
 
Romney has also said he plans to "listen to the Generals" for more military
spending. The defense budget is the highest in history and he plans to
let the Generals loose in the candy store of weaponary. Romney has no
clue of the warning of President Eisenhower on the "military-industrial
complex". Any "savings" from cutting Amtrak will quickly be gotten eaten
up by unproven and unneeded military hardware. Romney has also
appointed a number of the neocons from the Bush years as military
advisors to his campaign. That gang is just itching for starting another
war in the Middle East.
  by Tadman
 
Mod Note:

Thanks for your good manners in this discussion. This could get out of hand fast, so a friendly warning: Please continue to mind your manners or we'll lock this one up real quick-like. On a related note, I noticed something interesting last week: We are one of the few high-traffic forums Jeff didn't post a "cut the crap" sticky at, and I've never once issued an official warning in 2-3 years of moderating. Thanks very much to everybody for their good manners and tact.

Also, NellieBly gets the forum award of the week for quoting Steely Dan's IGY. I have done the same (maybe not at RR.net but I know I have) and it's the best quote ever.
  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
First of all, we should all remember that the Mitt Romney's only clear action as far as transportation policy was to get into an altercation with a rapper who apparently refused to bring his seat to an upright position before landing. Fortunately for Mitt, the rapper in question was Sky Blue from LMFAO, a duo best known for "Party Rock Anthem" and "Champaign Showers." So all we can state with certainty that Mitt Romney is in favor of an upright seating position! LMFAO, indeed.

I'd advise all posters not to take any statement by the Romney campaign all that seriously. If Mitt is currently advocating an end to Amtrak funding, we can rest assured that he probably took the opposite position in the past and probably would be more than willing to change positions again...and again. Does Mitt Romney support passenger rail? Who knows? He very obviously supported the MBTA as governor of Massachusetts, but there again, he's disavowed many of his acts as governor.
  by 2nd trick op
 
With regard to Mr. Neroden's observation:
I personally don't expect this problem to be solved by our current sclerotic political system, and I really don't know what's going to happen because of that (people don't tolerate 10% unemployment for long, though).

Perhaps we will *continue* to have politicians in power who don't understand macroeconomics. If so, expect further civil unrest as people will be unhappy about rising unemployment. Or perhaps we will get politicians who do understand macroeconomics. It's hard to tell when they talk out of both sides of their mouths, though.
I maintain that our present malaise has led us so far into uncharted economic terriotory, and the "safety valves" used in previous instances tied down for so long, that "macroeconomics" isn't going to be able to address these imbalences It's microeconomics, under the management of people from all sectors of society, but who live closer to the economic realities of the street, who will get us out of this one, as always.

We are where we are today because a large portion of the world caught on to what we've been doing right for a long time -- now we have to compete, and we can't compete as effectively with a large portion of our economy expecting to be protected. The unfortunate fact is that change is painful, and in the short run, globalization (the latest target for those peopetual malcontents on the radical fringe) does create losers -- usually the poorest-educated in economics, to whom the agove-mentioned malcontents are eager to sell their nostrums. Amtrak LD is, regrettably, a near-perfect example.

But on a more positive note, the sectors most likely to lead and mitigate the readjusment which has to come, areas like agriculture, light manufacturing, and ordinary retail trade, remain firmly in American hands, usually managed by people who know how to get things done -- not flouting the plans of the bureaucratic dreamers, but skirting them where common sense allows.

Unfortunately such plans can seldom find a place for the heavy, immovable, and targeted capital that characterizes the rail industry. Ironically, South Africa's last and finest steam power met an earlier-than-anticipated demise when the commuter service they were slated to oawer contracted under prressure from locally (and non-white)-run jitney operations. Ditto for Mexico's remaining intercity services when the Institutional revolutionary Party (PRI) oligocracy was cornered, after a 70-year reign, into sharing power with a younger coalition more intersted in deregulated air fares and more private vehicles

It's only in America, of late, that some people seem intersted in waailng out global trends which are, ultimately, ineascapable Another frightening possibility here that nobody seems willing to confront, is what happens when a displaced worker begins to recognize that a $300/wk Unemployment check beats $11.00/hr when the impact of Social Security plus state and local taxes is factored in. With a huge bulge in the population approaching retirement, more and more people are running their economic lives short-term. The underground econony is growing, and very difficult to police (unless you have visions of becoming one of the policemen).

Forget the worn-out whine about the "distribution of wealth"; the majority of private wealth lies within corporate control, and is usually passed on to institutions and philanthropies within a generation or two. The hue and cry comes mostly from the Beltway insiders who seek it for their own pet projects and their politically-connected cronies like Soros et al.

And to cite another paralell from the tunesmiths:

"We're waist deep in the Big Muddy; the Big Fool says to push on" (Pete Seeger)
  by Tadman
 
Allow me to posit the middle ground:

Lack of any type of regulation leads to ultra-competition, that which makes a system so tightly coupled that we run into problems such as mortgage backed securities in this recent crash or the syndicates of the Great Depression. In either case, risky investments were resold repeatedly and began to take on the nature of a far less-risky investment. As long as the music doesn't stop, there's virtually no risk. Once the music stops, the risk is immense and world-threatening. The economies of many countries come crashing down. The investor-owned railroads suffer, as do the reasonable investments made in railroads by guys like you and I. Or more likely, our pension funds and insurance companies, which can no longer cover us.

Over-regulation leads to massive stagnation due to rules made by politicians. Politicians from both sides have demonstrated that: 1. they know little about railroads; 2. what's good for the voter is not necessarily good for the railroad, including it's shareholders. Neat fact: the shareholders are the voters, they just conveniently forget that... Anyway, when you have over-regulation you see failures like PC, Rock Island, MILW, et al... In fact, even de-regulating to a modest amount of regulation can be hazardous - Braniff and Pan Am went under AFTER deregulation because their business model couldn't adapt.

Either path results in the demise of investor-owned railroads. Time and time again, the best solution has been a proactive industry that has their own governing body that actively posits regulations to protect all stakeholders.
  by gprimr1
 
Let's make sure we keep our discussion focused on railroads. There are some posts here I'm going to sleep on editing because they are talking more about the financial situation and spend vs cut policy and not about trains.

The key thing for me to remember is that transportation=infrastructure. Once it's gone, it would become a herculean task to recover. Railroad occupies prime property in several major cities. This property would be reclaimed.

We must look at the number of rail lines lost when rail fell out of popularity in the 1960's-1980's. People saw rail declining and land was developed. How different would today be if we hadn't ripped up so much rail? We can't afford the cost of loosing the land, then having to buy it back.

I am def a person who favors a reduction in spending and a loosening of regulation to responsible levels as keys to making America successful again. That said, infrastructure once lost can't be reclaimed, and with Amtrak's popularity raising, it would make sense to help get it closer and closer to self sufficiency.
  by MikeEspee
 
"Most people do not understand the values of subsidized transportation agencies and infrastructure beyond what they can see out their front windshield."

To that end, I vote a straight democratic ticket. Because the other side is willing to inch the country further towards transportation armageddon. That is not speculation or lies. It is a fact. You have NO idea what is in store if they get control.
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