Commuter Rail's Contribution To T's Debt

How much has the rebuilding and operations of the Old Colony etc lines added to the MBTA deficit?

It was more than half a billion to reopen the line, I believe, can't remember exactly. Not including operating costs thereafter.

Another case were NIMBYs tried to destroy the project and the money could have been used for something which was both facing little resistance and would have had higher ridership (Blue Line to Lynn).

The Middlboro and Plymouth lines are both pretty well used and probably have a minimal effect on the T's deficit. The Greenbush line, however, has had a VERY bad impact on the T's budget due to the large amount of money needed to make it "NIMBY-proof" and the low ridership numbers.

Middleborough Station has had to have its parking lot expanded twice I believe due to its runaway success, and an extension to Buzzards Bay would probably already have been built if it wasn't for this South Coast nonsense.

I believe that for it's length the Greenbush Line would have been plenty worth it if it hadn't been for the absurd Hingham tunnel and other NIMBY ploys. I believe in a previous thread a member mentioned that Hingham now wishes the tunnel had never been built in the first place, since it doesn't allow people on the line to access or even see their town, therefore getting all the negatives of a train and none of the positives.

Its a shame that Damons Point road was built on the ROW, as I would imagine ridership numbers might be higher if the line could have been rebuilt to Marshfield, or even Duxbury

I can't remember if the T had to pay to replace all the concrete ties that failed practically a century before they should have, but if they did there is more labor and money wasted.

The MBTA should have weighed the cost-benefit of CR vs ferries. I have a feeling the preexisting ferries would have won out and we wouldn't have the CR. It's a silly competition within one agency.

The MBTA made at least one faulty assumption when planning the Middleboro, Kingston/Plymouth and Greenbush lines. The assumption was that an "honor" fare collection system as used in places in Europe and even some of the newer transit and commuter rail systems in the U. S. Under the "honor" system, the trains would be run with an engineer and conductor only. The conductor would control all doors from one control station, like on rapid transit cars. The first batch of Pullman built cars from the 1977-78 era were rebuilt with this feature and were assigned to the Old Colony revival lines. The cars had been out of service, in storage prior to their rebuilding. The conductor would not collect fares. Instead, from time to time, "Inspectors" would board trains and check passengers' tickets to see that they had the proper one. If you did not present the proper transportation, you'd be assessed a fine, which if unpaid, could probably find you in jail some day. However, there is a problem with this in Massachusetts and probably some other jurisdictions. Currently, it is not a crime to board a train without a ticket. If you are on a train and unticketed, the conductor collects a cash fare. It is also not a crime to be poor and not have any money. If it happens once or twice, believe it or not, the conductor takes down your personal info. and you are billed. If you keep doing this and not paying, conductor can have you removed from train, but not arrested. No attempt has been made in Masachusetts to change the law to allow adoption of the "honor" system, so each South Shore/Old Colony train has an assistant conductor, not originally planned for, in the crew. There are probably about 11 or 12 sets of equipment at start up each morning and put away at night. That's probably 24 additional people to cover Mon-Fri service and a few more bodies to cover weekends. It all adds up.

Except for the Greenbush line, the Old Colony lines are pretty well utilized. Given that the Greenbush line cost more than all the others put together due to all the NIMBY-proofing that needed to be done to get it built AND it has the weakest ridership, I don't think you'll find too many people who would think that Greenbush was good for the T's bottom line. Still, if the state was REALLY serious about making the investment pay off it COULD be done. I suspect that a permanent ban on all widening/improvement projects to Route 24 AND the introduction of tolls along said road would drive South Shore residents to the commuter rail in droves... Assuming they didn't rise up and kill everyone who would vote to deprive them of their sacred gas-guzllers first.

"Assuming they didn't rise up and kill everyone who would vote to deprive them of their sacred gas-guzllers first."


At least you understand.

edbear wrote: However, there is a problem with this in Massachusetts and probably some other jurisdictions. Currently, it is not a crime to board a train without a ticket. If you are on a train and unticketed, the conductor collects a cash fare. It is also not a crime to be poor and not have any money. If it happens once or twice, believe it or not, the conductor takes down your personal info. and you are billed. If you keep doing this and not paying, conductor can have you removed from train, but not arrested. No attempt has been made in Masachusetts to change the law to allow adoption of the "honor" system, so each South Shore/Old Colony train has an assistant conductor, not originally planned for, in the crew.

They changed the law to allow for proof of payment on the Green Line, including giving inspectors the power to do ticket inspections and issue citations, and letting the Registry suspend your driver's license if you don't pay or contest it. This law probably covers the Commuter Rail, but if it doesn't, it would be trivial for them to change it to do so as well.

Of course, they'd also need to install ticket machines and validators at all Old Colony stations.

edbear wrote:The MBTA made at least one faulty assumption when planning the Middleboro, Kingston/Plymouth and Greenbush lines. The assumption was that an "honor" fare collection system as used in places in Europe and even some of the newer transit and commuter rail systems in the U. S. Under the "honor" system, the trains would be run with an engineer and conductor only. The conductor would control all doors from one control station, like on rapid transit cars. The first batch of Pullman built cars from the 1977-78 era were rebuilt with this feature and were assigned to the Old Colony revival lines. The cars had been out of service, in storage prior to their rebuilding. The conductor would not collect fares. Instead, from time to time, "Inspectors" would board trains and check passengers' tickets to see that they had the proper one. If you did not present the proper transportation, you'd be assessed a fine, which if unpaid, could probably find you in jail some day. However, there is a problem with this in Massachusetts and probably some other jurisdictions. Currently, it is not a crime to board a train without a ticket. If you are on a train and unticketed, the conductor collects a cash fare. It is also not a crime to be poor and not have any money. If it happens once or twice, believe it or not, the conductor takes down your personal info. and you are billed. If you keep doing this and not paying, conductor can have you removed from train, but not arrested. No attempt has been made in Masachusetts to change the law to allow adoption of the "honor" system, so each South Shore/Old Colony train has an assistant conductor, not originally planned for, in the crew. There are probably about 11 or 12 sets of equipment at start up each morning and put away at night. That's probably 24 additional people to cover Mon-Fri service and a few more bodies to cover weekends. It all adds up.

That's because the commuter rail doesn't operate on a proof of payment system. It operates the way railroads have worked in this country for well over a hundred years. Conductors go around and collect tickets and if the passenger doesn't have one (either do to lack of time to buy one or because he boarded at a station with no ticket office) he sells one to him (plus a surcharge if a ticket office was open where the passenger boarded).

if greenbush had been built and finished it in 1997 it would have cost $413000000.00 instead of the $534000000 =) i am talking in purchasing power value. 534000000 is 2007 power while the 413 mil is 1997 power

speaking of greenbush didnt the line use to extend past marshfield and connect to kingston somehow?

Yes, it did. The ROW is still visible on Google Maps. But it wasn't worth it to extend on the rebuild, and some sections have been compromised by roads and development.

How can you tell what the ROW looks like on google maps?

cytotoxictcell wrote:How can you tell what the ROW looks like on google maps?

It's most obvious where it cuts through the inlet/marsh south of Greenbush. It's pretty clear where there's a man-made embankment plowing through, and you can follow the gently curving streets on the former ROW, and the utility clearings along the ROW, etc. Also, some towns have property lines in map view (not satellite view) and the long linear ROWs are usually pretty clear.