Yet another Derailment

VDYard wrote:Last night the train that spreads alcohol on the third rail derailed at Farmingdale. The new engineer messed up and drove the train over the derail on the east end of the north track. He was going too fast and didnt know what the signals ment or that it was an electric lock switch and that the dispatcher did not want him to go east.

Before an engineer can go out on the road on their own, we must pass and exaustive battery of tests, signals being the first. If you don't pass the signal test, you don't get to go on and take the rest of the qualifying exams. It's over for you right then and there...period. So for you to say that he/she did not know what the signal meant is rediculous, and it sounds as if you really have no idea what you are talking about, considering that you don't "drive" a train, you operate one. I am in no way trying to gloss over someones mistake, but this sometimes happens with inexperience, and sometimes with experience too. You cannot go too fast on that track, as the ASC only gives you a 15 code, and guess what...the speed is 15 mph on that section of track. From the information I received, the train SLID past the signal and derail (remember it was snowing and rainy Thursday night). Should the crew have been more careful and aware of their surroundings, they probably could have. But to make it sound like this engineer was an idiot and the conductor a sleeping buffoon, is just not right. There was more to the story than you have posted, or I can can post here, as I RESPECT my fellow co-workers. If you are an LIRR employee, you should be ashamed of yourself for posting this type on info on here. If you are from the public, it just sounds like bad apples to me, and an attempt to make us railroaders look like idiots. Most (if not all the) other employees that frequent this board will probably back me up here.

VDYard wrote:The derailment woke up the conductor who was sleeping in the engine on the west end. The conductor saw what happened and wanted to fire the engineer on the spot but a supervisor came and talked the conductor our of firing the engineer. The engineer is very lucky. Also any people on a train passing on the main track were lucky because the engine would have ripped open the side of the train and killed them all.

A conductor cannot, and has NO authority what so ever to fire an enginneer, or any train crew member or any employee at any time. Even the president of the railroad cannot fire an employee on the spot. Only a transportation department supervisor can "remove you from service", but not fire an emplyee, pending an investigation.
Again, you show no knowledge of the railroad what so ever, as any other train COULD NOT GET a signal into Farm interlocking while this particular train was making a move into the siding at Farmingdale. If in fact the train did manage to go past the derail, guess what, it would have derailed long before it was in any danger of reaching the main track and striking a passing train (thats what a derail is designed to do!!). A derailed engine, even with several cars, at 15 MPH, drops to the ground and stops dead nearly instantly.
Sorry to ramble on guys, but this just rubbed me the wrong way.

Bob, the Conductors have gotten a few "ribbings" in this forum so I guess it's the Engineers turn.

To add to Bob's post, a Transportation management employee can "relieve" an Engineer, but only a "Designated-Supervisor-of Locomotive Engineers" (the Engineers bosses) can put an Engineer out of service where he loses salary. Even the trial papers would signed by a Road Foreman (DSLE). If the Engineer was to be fired, after a Company trial, the firing would be handled through the Supt. of Engine Service's office, who is the head of Engine Service.

To answer another post, certainly the Conductor could request that the Engineer be relieved for good cause. But in turn so can the Engineer request the same of the Conductor..probably the same for a Brakeman for everybody. Nobody is expected to stand around and let another employee act in an objectionable manner that may possibly endanger anyone or cause damage.

Unless of course your Donald Trump..then everyone's fired!

I have to raise the Bull$hit Flag on most of this post. There is no way that a Conductor would get the impression that he or she could fire an Engineer or any one else for that matter. Nothing anyone from the UTU, Traing, Rules , Transporation, etc has ever said,to me could possible give that impression, no way. And then there are the other details that Bob pointed out that don't make sense. The derail may have happened, but the other details are way off, probably a result of the RR rumour machine.

Wow! A Conductor can fire the Engineer??? That's new news to me. Seriously folks, I said it before, if you are a rail buff, that doesn't qualify you as knowing the rules of the RR, or how it works. As was said above, yes, any crew memeber can request to relieve another memeber of the crew if say we feel that they are behaving in an un-safe manner (i.e. such as someone showing being intoxicated or drugged, or is just behaving really irresponsible). Crew memebers can't fire each other as much as I'm sure that there are some out there who wish they could. That's all up to management and the Union. The person more than likely will get a trial notice and take it from there.

Also as was said above, you cannot travel at MAS on the North side track at Farm interlocking, the ASC will make sure of that. There have been instances lately at which trains have been slip sliding because of the snow and ice around the rails. It doesn't have to be snowing for it to happen, and since the north track at Farm is lightly used, ice and snow can still be present on the running rails and cause this. I have seen slip slide conditions during a misty rain storm. It can happen. Yes, still, engineers as all of us are, are human, and yes it is possible for someone to forget especially if they are tired, not paying attention, and even if you are a new employee, ( even though new employees are usually paranoid to make errors since they are on probation). Just remember, that while we have a heavy responsibility to maintain, we are still human, and mistakes can and do sometimes happen. But please do not come up with ridiculous notions such as a Conductor can fire an Engineer. Don't assume that you know it all because you own a train set or something of that nature.

Well said, Mark!

Dave Keller

It seems as if the relationship between engineer and conductor have been established well in this thread and in others.

The actual cause of this derailment is under investigation, but some of the facts stand. The engineer was a very new employee, but fully qualified. He happened to be considered one of the better in his class.

Speed control would have limited the speed of the train to a maximum of 15 MPH.

The switch at the east end of the North Side Track was an uncontrolled electric lock switch.

Clem

Things go wrong sometimes, all the training in the world in any job doesn't anticipate each bizarre circumstance. SH%$#T happens. No one should get fired, thank God no one was hurt. Learn the cause, re-teach and move on.

Members of the board:
Many years ago, I worked with a brakeman who liked to say things and start things that caused everyone in the yard or on the crew to get into serious discussion that almost would lead to fist fights, while he would sit back and enjoy the fun.
When he retired, I presented him with a canoe paddle that I had picked up at a yard sale and had engraved onto it "TO THE WORLD'S GREATEST S--T STIRRER"
Now it was our turn to watch the fun.
I think that VD Yard is having a ball watching all of these posts and, yes, He certainly deserves that paddle if I could only locate it.

And that's what will happen..things like that happen everywhere.

For instance, the FRA asked the railroads to post a notice concerning main track switch use. They described several accidents that occured in "dark territory" because of switches being left open. One crew, had over 25yrs experience each and the switch was left open and locked and a terrible collision occured because of it. Now you have a Conductor, Engineer and Brakeman fighting for their jobs and who knows what else because of a lapse in judgement...should they know better? Sure..But things happen.

What happened in Farmingdale will pass, hopefully the LIRR will ascertain the cause and try to rectify it and move on.

LOL, JJ... I've seen that oar a few times, usually followed by a couple others, aka as the "board of education" and the "splainin' stick". As long as they didn't hit me with the "club railroad", I didn't mind...

Keep moving ahead... just try not to do it again...