Stranded... on the CORRIDOR?...

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
Now that is a sorry excuse. In reality, even if the MARC engineer had outlawed, it is perfectly legal for the MARC engineer to remain in the cab to familiarize and orient the Amtrak engineer with the controls. In any case, there's nothing mysterious about operating a modern locomotive. By the sound of this story, you'd think that engineers were highly skilled NASA test pilots.

The bottom line is that management needs to be aware of the rules and needs to be assertive when bogus excuses crop up. It was perfectly legal under the hours of service rules to have the Amtrak engineer at the controls and the MARC engineer present in the cab, but not at the controls .

Regarding the above post, it's simply wrong. Please consider:

This scenario would be considered "performing service" under the Hours Of Service law. The MARC Engineer would be acting as a "pilot" for the Amtrak Engineer.

In the simplest terms, "performing service" means having anything to do with the movement of a train. Such as accepting/releasing paperwork/authority for the train. Or applying/releasing the air brakes.

It would NOT be "...perfectly legal for the MARC engineer to remain in the cab to familiarize and orient the Amtrak engineer with the controls."

Moreover, management is (usually) aware of the rules and will NOT "be assertive when bogus excuses crop up." Being unfamiliar with the operation of equipment or exceeding the Hours Of Service law is hardly a "bogus excuse".

It WOULD be perfectly legal for the Amtrak Engineer to be at the controls and have the MARC Engineer in the cab; however, the MARC Engineer would NOT be permitted under the Hours Of Service law to provide instruction on the operation of the train once his/her time was up. The MARC Engineer would simply sit there mute and "deadhead".

Regarding the NASA test pilot comment, I pose this question:

Would you want a Delta DC-9-50 Captain and First Officer being "assertively" told to fly one of United's B767-300ER's with YOU or YOUR family on board?

^ I believe the point that was trying to be made was that Amtrak/MARC equipment is pretty similar in regards to comparing trains to airplanes.

The point I am making is:

To the casual observer, twin-engine commercial jets are also pretty similar. But you can't take a DC-9 qualified crew and "make" them fly a foreign carrier's 767 for the sake of convenience, such as an unusual delay.

Rules are rules; MARC and Amtrak crews may not be qualified to operate the other carrier's equipment. The rules say crews must be qualified on the equipment they are to operate.

Laws are laws; once your time is up under the Hours Of Service, you cannot perform service. If the decision is made to violate the law, the carrier must pay the consequences.

Equipment familiarization and tour of duty limits keep the public safe, and are simply not "bogus excuses".

As much as passengers and even railfans might think it should be, a broken down train, or service disruption is NOT a valid reason to violate federal Hours of Service regulations. Only in very very very rare exceptions have crews been ordered to violate HOS.

Im a FRA certified Locomotive Engineer, same as engineers on Amtrak, MARC, Union Pacific, etc. However, I have never ran an Amtrak locomotive or a MARC piece of equipment. Sure I could probably figure it out, but thats not the time or place to be "flying by the seat of your pants".

Passenger equipment, especially newer stuff isn't like freight locomotives where while there might be differences, an SD40-2 is pretty much an SD40-2 all over the continent, no matter the paint. Some passenger equipment is so specialized and complicated, that you REALLY do need to know what you are doing with it or any problems encountered might become much worse if you do the wrong thing.

If I was on a yard job, and I was called out to rescue an Acela Express and they wanted me to run it (that would be penalty claim paydirt for your AMTK guys btw!) i would say NO. Ive never been in the cab of one and don't know the set up, the procedures or the routine to make it go successfully. Sure I could probably figure it out on my own, but that isn't in my job description, not to mention if I made a mistake and broke down again, it would be on me and be my fault. Im not paid enough to deal with that BS. I got no problem coupling up and rescuing a train that way, NJT and Amtrak have rescued each others trains many times in the past. But ill run from my engine thank you very much.........

and no, we aren't highly skilled NASA test pilots, but there is a reason why engineer training is nearly 2 years long...... We do kinda know what is going on, and it is slightly more complicated than "gas brake honk" - a good engineer makes it look and feel easy, but a bad engineer will quickly remind you that not everyone can do it. Anyway, Id like to see a NASA test pilot run a train and comply with all the rules and speed restrictions and make station stops and spots properly. I can't do his job, he can't do mine.

Like usual, everyone is an expert. Everyone could've done better after the fact than whoever was making the decisions in REAL TIME. Everyone can run every locomotive on the planet because they've seen pictures of 3 control stands. Everyone can spike interlocking switches with no knowledge of those appliances. Everyone makes a great dispatcher. No surprise. I get it. But I doubt 188 was the only train on the corridor between WAS and BOS that night. Anyone hear anything successful about Amtrak digging themselves out of this debacle? Of course not. But I'm also sure that there were some success stories. Speculation is dangerous by people who even know something about railroading. It's deadly when speculation comes from people who THINK they know about railroading. That kind of speculation kills people, many people, in our line of work... Especially when the actual, 100% factual play-by-play isn't available. Get what I'm saying?

I was a freight conductor, I was a locomotive engineer on freight and I'm now an Amtrak engineer - In my short career, thus far, I learned that I get paid a pretty penny to not kill or injur/dismember Amtrak customers and employees or anyone else that falls under my care to keep safe including myself by result of MY actions, to not tear up equipment, and for my own piece of mind to run a smooth train. I know railroading, not aviation, not insurance, not whatever everyone else on this forum does for a day job. I know not to speculate and to do my job and "what will be, will be" - very few people here know exactly what goes into the movement of ONE train: Hundreds of thousands of very small details... Everyone who doesn't do it to pay their bills, think now about how much you don't understand "Railroading" before you believe you could have been the second coming of Christ. Please, I'm begging you.

Jtgshu wrote:Sure I could probably figure it out on my own, but that isn't in my job description, not to mention if I made a mistake and broke down again, it would be on me and be my fault. Im not paid enough to deal with that BS.

I think that nicely summaries why major delays of this sort are allowed to occur. It all comes down to a lack of initiative and the disconnect between management and labor. It also doesn't help that the pay structure provides an incentive for delays. A train gets delayed, and there's overtime pay. Amtrak needs to find more aggressive and innovative management. I'd also advocate a shift from hourly pay to flat salaries for operating crews. If the Amtrak engineer on 188 had been paid a flat rate salary, it would have been a big incentive to get into that MARC cab and get the train moving.

SooLineRob wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
Now that is a sorry excuse. In reality, even if the MARC engineer had outlawed, it is perfectly legal for the MARC engineer to remain in the cab to familiarize and orient the Amtrak engineer with the controls. In any case, there's nothing mysterious about operating a modern locomotive. By the sound of this story, you'd think that engineers were highly skilled NASA test pilots.

The bottom line is that management needs to be aware of the rules and needs to be assertive when bogus excuses crop up. It was perfectly legal under the hours of service rules to have the Amtrak engineer at the controls and the MARC engineer present in the cab, but not at the controls .

Regarding the above post, it's simply wrong. Please consider:

This scenario would be considered "performing service" under the Hours Of Service law. The MARC Engineer would be acting as a "pilot" for the Amtrak Engineer.

In the simplest terms, "performing service" means having anything to do with the movement of a train. Such as accepting/releasing paperwork/authority for the train. Or applying/releasing the air brakes.

It would NOT be "...perfectly legal for the MARC engineer to remain in the cab to familiarize and orient the Amtrak engineer with the controls."

Moreover, management is (usually) aware of the rules and will NOT "be assertive when bogus excuses crop up." Being unfamiliar with the operation of equipment or exceeding the Hours Of Service law is hardly a "bogus excuse".

It WOULD be perfectly legal for the Amtrak Engineer to be at the controls and have the MARC Engineer in the cab; however, the MARC Engineer would NOT be permitted under the Hours Of Service law to provide instruction on the operation of the train once his/her time was up. The MARC Engineer would simply sit there mute and "deadhead".

So, basically, I was right. The MARC engineer could be in the cab, but not at the controls. Again, it all comes down to management accepting excuses. If I can figure out a way around the objections of a single engineer, somebody at 60 Massachusetts Ave. should have been able to come to the same conclusion. I don't blame the engineer, but management for not calling him on it.

No, actually you are not correct. There is a very well drawn line between the time after you have reached maximum allowable hours of service and time PERFORMING SERVICE. Time spent acting as a pilot clearly falls under performing service in the Hours of Service law. There's no technically, or basically or possibly. Either you are performing service or you're not in this situation.

And as for paying train crews salary instead of hourly wage with overtime, please let me know when the paying constituents of the labor unions vote on that agreement. Thats why we have a union - to protect us from people like you.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:Sure I could probably figure it out on my own, but that isn't in my job description, not to mention if I made a mistake and broke down again, it would be on me and be my fault. Im not paid enough to deal with that BS.

I think that nicely summaries why major delays of this sort are allowed to occur. It all comes down to a lack of initiative and the disconnect between management and labor. It also doesn't help that the pay structure provides an incentive for delays. A train gets delayed, and there's overtime pay. Amtrak needs to find more aggressive and innovative management. I'd also advocate a shift from hourly pay to flat salaries for operating crews. If the Amtrak engineer on 188 had been paid a flat rate salary, it would have been a big incentive to get into that MARC cab and get the train moving.

Wow.

So um.. what does your rant have to do with a downed power line, interlockings and HOS? Granted, I'm not a MARC or amtrak employee, but I'm guessing those roads have things like signals, rules, and speed limits. You know, things that all railroads have...

But hey, your rant was spoken like someone that doesn't have a clue about railroad work. Congratulations.

MikeEspee wrote:Speculation is dangerous by people who even know something about railroading. It's deadly when speculation comes from people who THINK they know about railroading. That kind of speculation kills people, many people, in our line of work... Especially when the actual, 100% factual play-by-play isn't available. Get what I'm saying?

Your rant about armchair experts notwithstanding, the fact is, to the general public, perception IS reality.

I'm sure there were thousands of planes that flew safely, on the days where one was stranded on the runway in the cold with overflowing toilets overnight because of hours of service rules and uncaring, inflexible airport management. Were you as forgiving and understanding when it was a plane?

This is the same kind of story to the public. The aforementioned incident was the last straw in congress passing a travelers bill of rights to prevent that kind of stuff.

Fortunately it seems that the outrage isn't to that level with AMTRAK... yet. But PR matters in a public business. And I get the sense that AMTK's managers don't understand that.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
...It all comes down to a lack of initiative and the disconnect between management and labor. It also doesn't help that the pay structure provides an incentive for delays. A train gets delayed, and there's overtime pay. Amtrak needs to find more aggressive and innovative management. I'd also advocate a shift from hourly pay to flat salaries for operating crews. If the Amtrak engineer on 188 had been paid a flat rate salary, it would have been a big incentive to get into that MARC cab and get the train moving.

No sir, you're not grasping the concept of what's legal.

I clearly stated the MARC Engineer could be in the cab peforming "deadhead service" once his/her time was up; not giving the Amtrak crew "pointers" on how to operate the equipment (such as emergency evacuation procedures).

Amtrak's crew was not qualified to operate the MARC equipment. MARC's crew was out of time. Rules and laws say so.

The pay structure of T&E crews has nothing to do with "...a lack of initiative...". It's been explained, quite clearly, why the carriers are prohibited from ordering crews to perform the acts you are encouraging.

Your posts seem to advocate a change to a hostile management that is willing to violate rules and laws to keep trains moving.

I'm sure someone at "60 Mass" was aware of this instant situation, and obviously came to a different conclusion than you; "engineer excuses" notwithstanding.

Amtrak chose to follow the rules and laws in effect. And everyone got home safely. The system worked.

I'll even edit my original question:

Would you want a Delta DC-9 qualified flight crew being offered an extra hundred bucks to fly a United 767 with you or your family on board?

JoeBas wrote:Your rant about armchair experts notwithstanding, the fact is, to the general public, perception IS reality.

I'm sure there were thousands of planes that flew safely, on the days where one was stranded on the runway in the cold with overflowing toilets overnight because of hours of service rules and uncaring, inflexible airport management. Were you as forgiving and understanding when it was a plane?

This is the same kind of story to the public. The aforementioned incident was the last straw in congress passing a travelers bill of rights to prevent that kind of stuff.

Fortunately it seems that the outrage isn't to that level with AMTRAK... yet. But PR matters in a public business. And I get the sense that AMTK's managers don't understand that.

There was no rant - only a request for those who speak of things which they do not understand to leave it to the professionals. It only makes one look foolish to come up with solutions like "have engineer's spike power switches" and "ignore rules put in place for situations such as these". Perception, however clouded or biased, is not reality if you choose to look for yourself the actual, factual information. Gain some knowledge before telling us what we should have done - But that's on the individual. The basic argument doesn't pertain to trains, planes, boats or trucks.

And the sense you get that Amtrak management is ignorant to the fact that this is a public business only solidifies my "rant".

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:Sure I could probably figure it out on my own, but that isn't in my job description, not to mention if I made a mistake and broke down again, it would be on me and be my fault. Im not paid enough to deal with that BS.

I think that nicely summaries why major delays of this sort are allowed to occur. It all comes down to a lack of initiative and the disconnect between management and labor. It also doesn't help that the pay structure provides an incentive for delays. A train gets delayed, and there's overtime pay. Amtrak needs to find more aggressive and innovative management. I'd also advocate a shift from hourly pay to flat salaries for operating crews. If the Amtrak engineer on 188 had been paid a flat rate salary, it would have been a big incentive to get into that MARC cab and get the train moving.

Well I think you are wrong

Being paid hourly or flat rate does not matter. the amount of overtime "earned" during a delay is not worth not being home. And you need to break down on your "go home train" the last train of the day to actually make OT. If you break donw on your first train, you are just cutting into any kind of break inbetween trians you might have. Anyway, purposely causing a breakdown, or not doing everything in your power to get the train moving is a violation of operational rules, and can actually lead to the engineer getting in trouble, and even getting time off if its a severe enough screw up. So to make an extra few bucks, say an extra hour or two pay, is it worth being out of work a few days (or even weeks) and loosing several hundred or thousand dollars? Unless its that "new math" I don't think it would be worth it........But hey, what do I know?

More aggressive management - HAHAHHAHAHAHH I have to laugh out loud at that one.....How many industires have federal laws and regulations that protect employees from management? Not too many. And where do you think the term "getting railroaded" came from? If anything, more aggressive managment leads to more malcontent inbetween management and labor and will lead to labor not being as helpful as they could be. "you guys are in charge, we just obey" - thats when things get real fun....But again, hey what do I know?

Sure, there is plenty of incompetency on the railroad, don't get me wrong, but there are also many very smart people who do everything they can the best they can. Unless you actually work on the railroad and see and understand the literally thousands of variables that it takes to get a train to get over the road, you might not see the bigger picture, and how seemingly common sense decisions can lead to much larger problems and delays and issues later on for many many more folks.......

Boy, am I having fun reading this thread! It's really refreshing to learn that railfans here think they know how to run Amtrak just as well as they do in the NJT forum. Honestly, some of the "solutions" proposed to this problem are so humorous that I actually find myself imagining how the scenarios would play out. My personal favorite is the solution about calling the pizza joint late at night on a weekday when they are almost positively closed and having pizza delivered. But let's say for entertainment's sake (because it only gets better from here folks) that the pizza place is open. We're now to expect them to be willing to deliver something like 50 pies to an abandoned train a couple hundred feet down the ROW because some random guy at Amtrak who happens to have the "service disruption pizza delivery credit card" tells them he'll tack on a $50 tip? Get real people. Oh yeah, that's if the pizza place doesn't hang up on you because it sounds like one of the worst prank calls ever.

Say, now I'm hungry. Maybe I'll camp out a couple hundred feet down the local ROW and try and get some pizza delivered.

hahahhahahah im been on work trains where we had pizza and food delieverd to the train "Go to the trian tracks and you will see a big gray engine numbered 4212 - park at the crossing and we will come over to meet you"